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Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
migsy86 · 05/02/2014 23:05

If one reads carefully the profiles of most escorts it is easy in my opinion for a punter to tell a genuine happy escort and a profile written by a man or by someone who really doesnt sound like they are in it for any enjoyment.

^This! Men who enjoy sex with women who are trafficked or exploited aren't the majority of clients.

anothernumberone · 05/02/2014 23:41

So I shouldnt be allowed to enjoy it because others dont

No one can stop anyone enjoying something they shouldn't but that does not make it right for society as a whole.

I think what you are doing has further reaching consequences than what you do or don't get out of it in the same way drug dealers don't see their responsibility in damaging other peoples lives while they are just tying to earn a living. What you are doing is wrong. It is wrong for other prostitutes who don't want to be involved in prostitution. It is wrong for your daughters. It is wrong for my daughters. You get to decided whether it is wrong for you or not but at the heart of your being I am willing to bet there is always doubt.

horsetowater · 05/02/2014 23:48

doublelife one of the key issues regular women have with prostitution is actually in your name - the double life that you lead. You said most of your punters are married men. If those married men didn't have you to have sex with behind their wives backs they would probably be dealing with the reason why they can't have sex with their wives - either by separating with dignity or by repairing whatever problem is in their marriage.

Having prostitutes is very convenient for people to live a double life, as you do. It means not taking accountability for your actions, whatever they are. Real men get sex for free - they make it happen with care and with love.

migsy86 · 06/02/2014 00:04

But sex doesn't always involve care and love. It shouldn't have to either. These men just clearly want a release with no emotional attachment, that's what I provide for them.

WhentheRed · 06/02/2014 01:16

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WhentheRed · 06/02/2014 03:16

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FloraFox · 06/02/2014 04:54

"If one reads carefully the profiles of most escorts it is easy in my opinion for a punter to tell a genuine happy escort and a profile written by a man or by someone who really doesnt sound like they are in it for any enjoyment."

migsy you've already said that you don't enjoy it - does your profile read that way?

I agree with you that sex doesn't need to involve love. I'm not sure about care but I think at a minimum it should involve mutual respect. They are paying you so that they don't have to respect your boundaries or your wishes or your desires. That's what you are selling.

migsy86 · 06/02/2014 07:49

My profile reads like I'm advertising a good time, which I am, its my chosen job, I'm not there to think about my needs. And I don't have a partner and don't want one so all I want from sex is the money at the moment. I don't see either of these thing as bad.

NumptyNameChange · 06/02/2014 07:56

yes actually it is ok to stop someone doing something that they enjoy if that thing is damaging to others.

there are paedophiles who will say, 'but i have never hurt a child and i believe the children have enjoyed it' and they have then gone onto campaign for legalisation. such organisations as PIE were around very recently and had very 'respectable' members including MPs and aristocracy.

ah but we're not children you'll say, how dare you compare us to children. my point is that enjoyment and personal 'right to do what i want' is not always the first priority funnily enough. and sadly there is a huge link here because so many women who end up in prostitution are groomed by sexual predators in childhood. oh but you weren't? oh that's alright then. the point is the more society says buying sex is fine, legal and you won't be prosecuted the more it increases the demand for prostitution and there will never be enough 'happy hookers' to meet that demand. nor will they want to see the scumbags or the men who get off on things that are terrifying or damaging etc.

by increasing the 'demand' you will increase the need to groom children, to exploit the vulnerable, to get young girls hooked on crack, to traffic women from other countries.

so unless you're going to sign up to seeing 500 men a day and not discriminating at all about who you see legalisation for you to 'do what you want because it's your right' will directly lead to the mass exploitation of other vulnerable women.

are you really ok about that?

if it is illegal you'll still get your punters - they're not suddenly going to stop contacting you, you can continue to advertise your services as something else and you can probably charge very high prices for being discrete and a respectable face that they'll trust. so you don't even lose out by something that would massively help those who are in more vulnerable positions.

why do you need it to be legal? do you honestly think you won't find five or six clients a week (and presumably that's £5-00-£600 plus if you're charging a reasonable rate in your picky end of the spectrum and surely enough for you - i get less than that as a teacher) and carry on as you are if laws came in to protect the most vulnerable? so is it just you need society to agree with your perspective that what you do is fine and dandy?

can you see how selfish this is?

NumptyNameChange · 06/02/2014 08:08

x posted migsy - my post above was not directed at you btw - it's for those who claim to be earning well, loving it and selective about clients.

KimberlyC · 06/02/2014 12:21

Hey, I didn't come back to reply last night because I was busy (making money and then out being a normal person with a social life.)

I think Doublelife put it very well: "Its the pimp/abuser who is the problem!!! Not the happy whores!!"

I am not sure I agree that my words are used by pimps for their own propaganda, but if they are that's not my fault. Everyone is responsible for their own actions and how they live their lives.

What I am doing is not wrong. Sex is a good and healthy thing. I make them feel good! And I don't just mean physically - I mean that I make them feel good by being kind to them. I respect my clients and genuinely want to make them happy and give them their money's worth.

It's true that I am choosy about my clients. I only do vanilla stuff (a vibrator up the butt is about as crazy as I get.) I'm not interested in kicking some guy in the balls because he's got mommy issues. I provide a "girlfriend experience" which is affectionate - lots of kissing, cuddling, and foreplay. Sure, I am also a willing sex object. Within reason I will dress up in stockings or something if a client requests it. But I don't encourage too much of that and the clients who come to see me are generally interested in connecting with a real human being that they can relate to, even if it's superficially.

NumptyNameChange · 06/02/2014 13:50

i can't get this out of my head.

the idea that we should forgo the rights of female children to grow up in a world where women aren't seen as commodities to be legitimately bought for male pleasure, that we should ignore the direct link between demand for prostitutes and trafficking, addiction and grooming, that we should forgo the rights of women legitimately trying to make it in the world as people equal to men without being seen as sexual objects etc because a few so called 'happy hookers' want to fuck men for money because they like it is just beyond ridiculous.

a few happy hookers are welcome to do what the hell they like if they're willing to face the consequences and not expect us to all pat them on the back and congratulate them. the idea that they should have a major deciding stake in the matter is farcical. we don't for example let smack addicts have the deciding say on the legalisation of drugs or people who enjoy street racing decide on speed laws. we go with the policy that protects the broader public and it's needs.

sure pimps and punters will grab onto the happy hooker rhetoric as a handy mask for the actual reality of what they do, they can't speak for themselves because realistically what the hell could they say? i have the right to sell your daughters and sisters and those failed by society to be fucked by men because i have the right to make a living? it's my right to abuse girls and profit from it?

it's like asking the 1% how they think the economy is faring - fucking well for them unsurprisingly.

there is a food chain within prostitution as there is within everything. what the 'happy hookers' on this thread have shown is that like capitalists everywhere they don't give a flying fuck about those lower on the rungs and all they care about is their money, their freedom, their 'choices'. they don't care what effect their 'choices' have upon anyone else. they snear at women who work for less than them or with less ability to discriminate yet they hide behind those same women in their arguments for legalisation - it will protect women etc when in reality the evidence points to the exact opposite. it will protect them - the privileged few and tehy give not a shit that it will also protect the exploiters and abusers and make life even worse for those in their control.

the fact that someone has a vagina does not make them a sister in feminism any more than being black in neocolonialism made you 'for' the people of your nation. male, female, black, white, old, young, whatever - there are those who are entirely for themselves and those who care about others.

the couple of self declared 'happy hookers' on this thread are the former. they make no secret of it. they're essentially saying loud and clear, 'why should i give a fuck about anyone else? all i care about is doing what i want'. it has made me think hmm actually i'm not sure i do want prostituting yourself voluntarily to be legal - absolutely i want it to be impossible to prosecute someone coerced into it, someone who wasn't entitled to benefits, someone who was severely mentally incapacitated etc to be immune to prosecution but actually painting all prostitutes as victims and having no choice is a lie and a mistake imo.

a grown woman with no coercion, no trauma induced path, no fear, no 'lack of any other choice' does not deserve the laws protection whilst she fucks over other women with a smile on her face.

NumptyNameChange · 06/02/2014 13:56

and note the 'happy hooker' type will happily recruit your daughters when her own sale-ability dries up. when i did research into the sex 'industry' back in the late 90's most 'escort' agencies were set up and run by ex prostitutes with very hard sell speels (i went undercover as a girl considering working in the trade). these are not innocents and not to be mistaken for those whose interests we desperately need to protect. these 'madams' were so determined to get me out fucking for them because i was young, attractive, intelligent and fresh meat - they'd assure me i could get 5 bookings a night because the punters would hear a newbee was on the books. they tried to get me to go out on a job there and then because they knew that was the path into desensitisation whereas if i went away and thought about it there was no chance of me coming back. they'd sold themselves for a few decades and learned the ins and outs of the business and then became recruiters and pimps themselves.

NumptyNameChange · 06/02/2014 14:00

just LOOK at the way the happy hookers on this thread try to hide behind migsy and be seen as her protectors whilst actually SNEERING at women who get left to fuck the men they wouldnt' touch with a barge pole and certainly not for £30.

when they do this shit they're as bad as pimps. they're happy to make money that perpetuates the misery of other women.

NumptyNameChange · 06/02/2014 14:02

sorry last bit - the whole 'i'm just like you, i'm a mother and normal and lovely too' - actually you're not! you're not just like me. no more than david cameron is like me because i choose to give a shit about those in more vulnerable positions than me. i choose to make self sacrifice sometimes in order to help others. i choose work that tries to close inequality gaps and influence prejudice and discrimination. i choose to bring my son up with an example of being an ethical, decent person who gives a damn about how my actions impact on others.

so no actually - you're not just like me.

migsy86 · 06/02/2014 14:20

I actually don't know what to say on this anymore other than the world is never going to be equal and you can see clearly its not on this thread, even between whores lol!

I offer stuff that 'better' workers wont do (anal, water-sports, spanking ect) and specialise in submission. I don't like the idea im driving prices down and don't want all women to be seen as sex objects. I DO feel that until the world is 100% equal you will never eradicate prostitution, and I don't want to be left going to food banks or losing my home because people are to scared to pay me for sex. I don't know what the answer is I really don't.

I try and think about the wider picture but I still cant see what the answer would be, because you talk of self sacrifice. Without going into too much detail on a public forum, I have so much to lose to even start thinking about taking a different stance on the subject.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 06/02/2014 14:24

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grimbletart · 06/02/2014 14:33

migsy: your last post is so sad. You sound trapped (as many prostitutes are) in a place they would rather not be. I do hope you find an escape route. There are posters on here with experience of helping. Is there anyone here who can advise?

migsy86 · 06/02/2014 14:50

I don't want people to feel sorry for me, I choose to do this. Im just not what you class as a 'happy hooker' who wont see a client unless they like them. I accept I've got myself in this situation and for the time being im ok with it.

Beachcomber · 06/02/2014 16:35

Migsy if you are in or near London there is an organisation called Eaves who have a drop-in centre on Brixton Road. The drop-in centre is a facility that simply allows women to chat to someone - there is no pressure and they don't judge. They can help with all manner of support services including housing, dealing with debts, accessing specialist counselling, etc.

It's OK to drop by just to have a chat about stuff, you don't have to have the intention of exiting.

I don't know of similar organisations outside London (I don't live in the UK) but if you are outside the London area, you could contact Eaves and I imagine they would be able to advise you about organisations more local to you. You can just write them a message in the contact form on the website, you don't have to phone if you don't want to.

Just posting this in case it could be useful to you one day.

Beachcomber · 06/02/2014 16:46

Also, I don't think you need to be thinking about the bigger picture or other women, be that about prices or politics or anything else. You just look after yourself lovey. I think you owe yourself some counselling about your rape. Hugs x

KimberlyC · 06/02/2014 16:52

Wow! Since I'm not a miserable victim, I must be a rapacious monster. OK.

Migsy, I agree with those who say that you should explore options for getting out of sexwork as you don't seem to be happy in it. In the meantime - if you find walking away too daunting to consider at this time - I think you can do a lot to make your work better. You do have the ability to refuse any client you choose to. I am not some gorgeous sexpot with men falling at my feet: I just choose to work as I do and then provide a better service for those I do see. Do you know about the SAAFE forum? Quite a lot of women on there will agree with me that you don't have to do anything or see anyone that you don't want to. Google it or PM me if you don't know about it. There is a lot of support on there.

I offered quickies (mine were £40) and stopped doing it because it was too much bother and attracted cheapskates. I have a good friend who does some of the more raunchy stuff but she genuinely enjoys doing it. There's nothing wrong with these things, but if you feel crummy about it then it's wrong for you and you will continue to feel that you can't be choosy.

Contrary to what some people might think, when a potential newbie comes on that forum asking how to get started, we don't all try to recruit her. We make sure she understands that prostitution has many drawbacks, including isolation, physical danger, social censure, and that it can be very hard to get out if that life because the money is so easy come, easy go. If one of the young women I knew approached me asking how to get started I would probably decline to help her, other than telling her about SAAFE (and I'd tell her to read the dangerous punter warnings first.)

NumptyNameChange · 06/02/2014 17:44

' I don't want to be left going to food banks or losing my home because people are to scared to pay me for sex. I don't know what the answer is I really don't. '

is there something exceptional we're unaware of about your cost of living that you couldn't, like so many women do and so many of us have done at one time or another, live briefly on benefits or find yourself a job? you say you care about x, y and z yet not enough to stop doing what you're doing. you say you feel shame about 'working' during pregnancy but no shame to do it now and no problem you say if your daughter wants to follow in your footsteps.

to me there's a lot of contradictions there. ime and training having a head full of contradictions you're trying to pretend are consistent is in no way the path to mental health.

i want to home ed my son, i have mental health issues historically and very low energy levels through m.e. type condition and i hate having to go 'out there' sometimes. i work now in a stressful job and am scared about how long i'll be able to keep it up and how i'll keep funding me and my son. should i go into prostitution? would you recommend it for me and my son? can you also perhaps see that by campaigning for it to be legalised and sanctioned you'll put me and my son in a position where explicitly or implicitly i'll be seen as a scrounger if/when i can't cope at work anymore and start signing on rather than just sell myself to punters?

NumptyNameChange · 06/02/2014 17:48

there really ARE better options and you deserve to treat yourself and your well being better than this. not by getting the right head set to survive punters fucking you when all you want is the thirty quid but by completely changing this situation. there really, really are other routes for you and your children. and your children really are along for the ride. you're driving - choose a good route.

migsy86 · 06/02/2014 17:48

Im not miserable, I just wouldn't call myself a 'happy hooker'. I treat it as a job, so no I don't turn down work, I will go the extra mile to please, and some days I just wanna stay in bed. I have spent all but 1yr of my adult life doing this so the genuine excitement has gone now but I don't dislike what I do.