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Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/02/2014 17:55

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/02/2014 17:57

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KimberlyC · 05/02/2014 18:05

Buffy, I don't see it as either/or.

I, too, would like to help the vulnerable women. But that's not going to stop me from saying "Hey! I am not a victim! I like what I do and I want to keep on doing it!"

If anything, I would welcome any measures that actually decreased the numbers of vulnerable women in the industry. Particularly the trafficked women from poor countries.

But, to put it more cynically, part of the reason I would welcome this because they're making my job harder. Some of them drive down prices. Quite a lot of them bring troubles in the form of con artists, thieves, and other unsavoury things that makes it harder for the good clients to find the good prostitutes on sites like Adultwork. The clients who see me often say that they've long since learned to avoid the profiles of hot young 21-year-old blondes because they're either not genuine profiles or the young hottie is a flakey mess who can't be counted on to provide a high level of service.

That said, flakey young messes have the right to earn a living, too. I used to be one, myself.

I don't know how to go about separating out the women who need rescuing from those who do not. Even defining "trafficking" or "pimping" can be very difficult. The stereotype of the man with a stable of women who are beaten and forced to work does exist in reality. But what about the sort of emotionally abusive twat who sits on his arse and leaches off his partner? Is a cocklodger a pimp?

When I started working in England I didn't know how to get started. I'd done it in another country but I didn't know how things worked, here. Another working girl helped me. She showed me where to advertise, took my photos, and rented me the second bedroom in her working flat until I was ready to rent my own premises. Was she a pimp? Or just helping another girl out?

grimbletart · 05/02/2014 18:06

I don't want my sons to grow up thinking that they are entitled to pussy, either.

Am I the only one who shuddered at that phrase? Pussy? Talk about dehumanising.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 05/02/2014 18:08

But I have read many reviews on the punter sites where they express worry that a girl was not happy to be there.

Yes, and then there are the ones who get really bloody annoyed that the woman doesn't appear to be happy. They still fuck her though, they just leave a crap review.

Sometimes I will see someone who is annoying - usually a boundary pusher. That's someone who tries to wheedle things I don't want to do or otherwise tries to get into my head via some sort of emotional manipulation. I can handle them because I'm a strong person who knows what she's about.

Good job they came to see you then and not some other woman who isn't quite so strong, eh? 'Annoying' isn't the word I'd use for such behaviour though.

KimberlyC · 05/02/2014 18:10

That's why I used the word "pussy." I don't want my son to think that he's entitled to that, with that sort of mindset.

anothernumberone · 05/02/2014 18:18

I have to be honest by driving the policy forward amnesty has lost me. The fact that the issue has gained enough internal traction that their worldwide leaders want to open it up to credible debate among members has lost me. The fact that a prominent member from the UK leadership comes on to a site like Mumsnet in a bid to strengthen the campaign for this issue has lost me. If this is up for moral debate when will the time come for moral debate on slavery or on legalising underage brothels. This issue and the effect it has on women is a rubicon and amensty have crossed it.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/02/2014 18:18

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WhentheRed · 05/02/2014 18:24

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PlentyOfPubeGardens · 05/02/2014 18:29

I think this is an interesting angle (from here)...

7. The Nordic Model deprives women of a living.

This myth is the most intriguing because it is actually an admission that the Nordic Model works, directly contradicting myth six. The Model can only deprive women of a living if it does, in fact, reduce the demand for prostitution. What’s more, comprehensive exit programs are a critical part of the Model, involving access to a wide variety of services including retraining and employment support.

Hashtags like #nothingaboutuswithoutus (used by a number of groups, not just sex industry organizations) regularly appear alongside this claim as though the only satisfactory option available is for everyone to accept a flourishing prostitution market because some people want it that way.

Not just any people though, of course – workers – if you buy the “sex work is work” line. Leaving aside the problems with the concept that prostitution is a job like any other, if we accept this premise, then the argument doesn’t follow, as workers in any given industry don’t get to determine whether or not that industry continues.

Take the brown coal or forestry industries in Australia, for example. These are sectors that have been deemed by governments to be harmful in a number of ways and that, as a result – while they are still potentially profitable – they no longer have a social license to continue operating uninhibited. Workers in these industries are often outraged at seeing their jobs threatened, which is why unions advocate for “just transitions,” providing retraining and facilitated access to social and employment services for those workers affected (sound familiar?). For the most part, these unions have given up arguing that the harmful industry in question should continue simply to avoid employment disruption for workers.

If sex work is work, and prostitution is just another industry, then it is open for wider public discussion and policy changes like other industry, including the possibility that governments will no longer want it to function.

FloraFox · 05/02/2014 18:31

The only measures that will reduce exploitation and trafficking is criminalising the pimps and punters. Decriminalisation (the pimps' option) or legalisation will tell men they are entitled (as AI thinks) to purchase women's bodies for sex. This will increase demand which will be met by increased supply, voluntary or not.

I believe exploiting others for sexual pleasure is immoral and I don't see why that should be left out of it. migs how many of those men who expressed concern about women called the police or tried to help her? Or did they fuck her anyway then warn other abusers that she wasn't hiding her distress well enough and it put them off?

I also think perpetuating the abuse of vulnerable people for your financial interests is immoral where you have other options available.

I don't think having sex with strangers is immoral but I don't recognise a female sexual experience where there is no autonomy in the sex itself, where you have to detach your mind from the physical experience or where you feel repulsed by the man who is fucking you. That's not sex, that's being fucked. There's a reason that expression has negative connotations.

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 18:32

I give men the right to pay me for sex. Surely they have the right to buy it from me. A willing seller. Yes I did it out of desperation, no I don't earn a lot of money, but its still my right.

Beachcomber · 05/02/2014 18:45

You sound pretty privileged KimberyC.

You say that you are educated, mature and that you pick and choose you the men you have sex with and that they come to you knowing that you are very much there by choice. I imagine you earn good money. Are you putting money away for your retirement too, I think you probably are.

Good for you. You are alright. You, however, are not representative of what women like Rachel Moran testify as being the reality of the vast majority of prostitution. Rachel was in prostitution for 7 years and worked at every end of the market - street, indoor, escort, brothel. She says that she never saw a woman who was really happy with her situation the whole time. She says that the women would admit this sometimes to each other but never to people outside the life.

Good for you if you are an exception. Legislation, however, is not decided for the exceptional minority and for the most privileged. It is there to protect the least privileged and the vulnerable majority.

And of course your opinion counts - although it must be considered the opinion of someone with a considerate vested financial interest.

I find it very unpleasant that you describe your life as being one of strength, choice and privilege, and then get very holier than thou when it comes to the situation of women who are a great deal less fortunate than you and call other women's concerns for them "fucking obnoxious".

I volunteer in a drop in centre for people in prostitution and I have often seen prostitutes block others from accessing help by rallying them round as all being strong women who make independent choices who don't need others sticking their nose in. It is disturbing behavior and reminds me of what NumptyNameChange said earlier about 'piggy backing'.

Beachcomber · 05/02/2014 18:55

And I think it is pretty foul to talk of desperate girls and women 'driving prices down'.

I've seen this before too and it always makes me wonder if the person realizes how privileged it makes them sound.

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 19:04

I think Kimberly is lucky. I cant be choosy about my clients.

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 19:05

And I suppose im driving prices down with 30 quid quickies.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/02/2014 19:06

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horsetowater · 05/02/2014 20:29

As many as 85% of women in prostitution report physical abuse in the family, with 45% reporting familial sexual abuse. [Home Office Paying the Price, 2004]

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 20:49

So what has this got to do with choosing to become prostitutes?

doublelife111 · 05/02/2014 22:07

nice to see kimberleyc being abused now as well as me.
basically we are disgusting selfish excuses for women and mothers,unless we got into it through desperation or because a nasty scary man made us do it.Then we can have your sympathy,but you wont actually believe a word we say because we are obviously so damaged mentally that we are delusional...

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/02/2014 22:12

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doublelife111 · 05/02/2014 22:16

In my opinion we are being subjected to authoritarian feminism and colonialist maternalism .
If I was murdered tomorrow,and it was reported in the press..they could choose to put -single mother of 2,health visitor(or insert other respectable caring job here),or prostitute ..The difference in label would hugely affect how sympathetic people would be unfortunately.

doublelife111 · 05/02/2014 22:27

I dont mean you Buffy.I just meant thats how i felt i was being judged.
KimberleyC you sound like you are very similar to me.I loved your posts.
I have been a mumsnetter for over 10 years now and of course have an alternative profile name.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/02/2014 22:37

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doublelife111 · 05/02/2014 22:59

i think its sad and i completely support prosecution of those men.But I think it is totally wrong to imply because i'm a happy whore i am harming other women.
So I shouldnt be allowed to enjoy it because others dont?
like i said earlier,i think thats like saying if you are in a happy relationship with a man you are somehow being disloyal and harming women who might be in a relationship with an abusive man.Its the pimp/abuser who is the problem!!! Not the happy whores!!
If one reads carefully the profiles of most escorts it is easy in my opinion for a punter to tell a genuine happy escort and a profile written by a man or by someone who really doesnt sound like they are in it for any enjoyment.