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Amnesty's proposal to legalise prostitution is wrong - we can't let men who exploit women off the hook

693 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 29/01/2014 19:31

An Amnesty International document leaked this week argues for the legalisation of prostitution. It says that approaches like the Swedish Model – which criminalise buying sex, but legalise selling it – are guilty of "devaluing" prostituted women and "criminalising the contexts in which they live". In essence, the proposals say that most women who become prostitutes make a rational, informed choice – effectively , that they enter into a relationship of equals with the men who purchase their bodies.

I’m really disappointed in Amnesty. I'm a long term supporter of the Swedish Model and, for me, the idea that we should simply accept prostitution as a fact of life is totally wrong. It is particularly irresponsible at a time when it's being reported that austerity is driving many women – and in particular single parents – into prostitution.

I believe Amnesty have got it wrong. Firstly, I don’t believe prostitution is, in most cases, "consensual sex between adults", as the policy document describes it. The idea that women who go into prostitution are exercising 'free choice' just doesn’t stack up. Abuse and lack of alternatives are almost always a factor - many enter the sex trade young, and come from backgrounds fraught with suffering and abuse. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but, all things being equal, I believe most women don’t 'choose', in the true sense, to become prostitutes.

Secondly, I disagree with the idea there can be any real equality between a woman who sells her body and a man who buys it. As Amnesty admits, the conditions of the sex trade are "imperfect" to say the least. British 'prostitute review' sites like 'Punternet' – as well as the male-led 'Hands off my whore' campaign in France – show what so-called clients think of the women they buy sex from.

A large proportion of prostitutes say they experience aggression while working, and nearly seven in ten suffer the symptoms of post-traumatic stress. The dynamic between buyers and sellers of sex ranges from the disrespectful to the downright abusive – but there’s almost always an inequality at play.

Of course, there'll always be some who say that prostitution is "the oldest trade" and that there's not much we can do about it. But this argument is as untrue as it’s depressing. In Sweden, for example, stopping the purchase of sex changes social attitudes, making men less likely to purchase sex and more likely to support prosecutions for others - and there’s no reason why this can’t happen in the UK. Amnesty need to aim much higher. We can do better, surely, than just make the exploitation of women better regulated.

The role of charities like Amnesty should be to lift standards up, not drive them down. Amnesty are supposed to be an ambitious organisation. They shouldn’t just shrug their shoulders and say "c’est la vie". Over the years they've done an indispensable job in ending exploitation, improving human rights, and reducing inequalities. Legalising prostitution runs counter to all these things. It has turned Germany into a "giant Teutonic brothel", as the Economist puts it - and, according to Equality Now, has "empowered pimps and traffickers" in Amsterdam.

Women at risk or in economic need require more opportunities and better protection – not to be told their only option is a demeaning last resort. For the sake of women and mothers everywhere I sincerely hope Amnesty will rethink their position.

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 05/02/2014 15:28

"you were raped and that damaged you. Now you are broken and no longer an autonomous adult with opinions I need respect."

KimberlyC - don't put words in my mouth. Particularly not offensive ones.

Feminists care about other women. We care about all women - and part of that is not dismissing things like them being gang raped as children.

If Migsy86 does not wish to discuss such personal issues with me she is entirely welcome to tell me and I will respect that.

Recognizing that rape is a traumatic event is part of fully respecting a woman by not assuming misogynistically that it was probably like water off a duck's back to her because after all, fucking is what women are for. Angry

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 15:28

And thanks Kimberly, I agree with you. Just because that happened to me, doesn't somehow invalidate my consent now.

Beachcomber · 05/02/2014 15:35

And you know KimberlyC - by telling me how I may interact with another woman, and you speaking for that woman, it seems that it is you who is not respecting others as autonomous adults.

This is an adult discussion in which we are all equal, nobody put you in charge. Migsy has posted things it would be frankly inhumane to ignore. If she doesn't wish to discuss them further with me I'm sure she is more than capable of telling me so herself. I say that because I respect her opinions as an autonomous adult. Sorry Migsy, in this exchange with KimberlyC I feel like I'm talking about you as though you are not here.

KimberlyC · 05/02/2014 15:44

Migsy is very brave to be so open about what she has experienced in her life. I've seen this before, so many times (this isn't my first ride on this particular rhetorical merry-go-round)... we're told that we're not being honest or that we're somehow too fucked up or damaged to be able to even know our own minds.

She doesn't need your pity. She should have your respect and admiration.

There are women who are being abused and forced or coerced into prostitution. They should be helped. But it's not helpful to paint everything with the same brush. Sex isn't shameful. Performing sex acts for money isn't inherently shameful.

There are also women being abused and forced or coerced into sitting at sewing machines for twelve hours a day. Not all seamstresses are victims and neither are all whores.

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 15:48

I'm anon on here so I don't mind talking about it. Its not something I've really ever talked about before. I don't know if there is a link, maybe if I saw a shrink they could see a link but me personally, I don't feel there is one. Not all people who have been raped become sex workers and not all sex workers have been raped. I suppose its a coincidence.

Beachcomber · 05/02/2014 15:48

Sorry - that cross posted with your post Migsy86. I won't post further on the matter if you agree with KimberlyC that my posts are 'fucking obnoxious'.

My apologies. I wish you well.

FloraFox · 05/02/2014 16:39

KimberlyC "consent" is given the highest priority value by liberals and libertarians. Lots of other schools of thought, across the political spectrum recognise that consent is flawed for most people, our ability to consent is limited by the choices available to us and by societal pressures, individual weaknesses etc. It's a very right wing, "no society", survival of the fittest approach to say that we are all empowered to make and therefore responsible for our own choices. The same thinking leads to no minimum wage, no health and safety rules, no consumer protection laws etc. and viewpoints that the poor are poor because of their choice so there is no need to help them. Liberal / libertarianism is the darling of rich white men who already have the power to make all their choices without constraint and this thinking supports their privileged position by putting responsibility for the shitty choices available to others squarely on them. This is not calling people victims but recognising that society is structured for the benefit of some and not others and the idea of "consent" is a smokescreen to stop people from seeing it as it is.

It's not a coincidence that many prostitutes have suffered from rape, childhood abuse, domestic abuse, grooming by pimps, mental health problems or addiction and, migs, I don't think it's a coincidence for you.

The existence of some women in prostitution who have suffered from none of these things, who love man-pleasing sex and love to put their sexual desires out of the picture while servicing unknown, ugly men does not disprove this. However, Kimberly if you are going to present yourself as evidence that happy hookers exist and therefore play your part in continuing the abuse of vulnerable women, you do invite questions about yourself and whether you really are a happy hooker. If you are not comfortable with those questions, you don't need to put your personal experience into the argument, you could put forward your general viewpoint on the issue without bringing your experience into it.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 05/02/2014 16:42

migsy I just want to hug you Sad

I think your posts here are incredibly brave.

If you think it might help to talk, there are people ready to listen. It doesn't matter that your rape happened years ago.

Rape Crisis
freephone helpline
0808 802 9999
12 - 2.30pm
7 - 9.30pm

Flowers
migsy86 · 05/02/2014 16:46

Beachcomber I don't think your posts are obnoxious at all I just agree with Kimberly that what happened to me didn't make me what I am today. Thanks all of you for your concern.

Beachcomber · 05/02/2014 16:51

OK, migsy86 - thanks for saying that. Smile

It does come from a place of concern as you say.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/02/2014 16:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/02/2014 16:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KimberlyC · 05/02/2014 17:19

I shouldn't mislead people into thinking that everything I do is one big sexy fun time. Or even that I want them to believe that. Not all clients are particularly fun to be with. I saw one gentleman who was covered in skin tags from neck to ankle. It was really gross. But you know what? I didn't feel demeaned to have sex with him. He was a nice fellow. It's not his fault he looks like The Alligator Man. And I showed him a good time and made him happy. That's what I do. I treat men with respect, show them affection, and make them feel really good. That makes me feel good.

KimberlyC · 05/02/2014 17:26

I am a prostitute. Laws and social mores around prostitution directly affect me and I should have a say in the debate.

If my personal experience was a tale of tawdry woe, I'm sure everyone would welcome hearing it. But it's not. I'm not Belle Du Jour having champagne sex with millionaires and I'm not some wretched urchin being abused. I'm just a woman exactly like the rest of you (I post under a different name here about the same crap everyone else does.) The only thing different about me is that I don't mind having sex with strangers. Most of them aren't ugly and all of them are polite and decent (or else they get shown the door.) They're not monsters or perverts. They're ordinary people who want an attractive woman to be nice to them and suck their cocks. I'm happy to do it.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 05/02/2014 17:33

Ordinary decent people don't want to have sex with people who aren't into them in a situation where they cannot know whether the person they are fucking is truly, enthusiastically consenting or is doing it out of fear or desperation. I'd have thought.

I cannot square 'treating men with respect' with condoning such behaviour from them.

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 17:34

Kimberly, I don't know if im getting you confused with another poster but do you have another job? And are you picky with who you see?

And no this job is not all fun, its hard work mentally and physically. I wouldn't say it was damaging but you have to have the right mindset from the beginning.

FloraFox · 05/02/2014 17:42

Kimberly no-one here is saying you shouldn't have a say in the debate. It is a myth peddled by the punter/pimp lobby that women in prostitution are being silenced by feminists. However, other voices are also valuable, I don't agree that only currently working women in prostitution can contribute. This is also peddled by punter/pimps, largely to deflect from the fact that they want the women to speak for them, they do not generally speak openly for themselves. There are no political issues where only those people currently involved in a situation are able to speak about it.

For example, I believe unpaid internships should be banned because they preserve opportunities to get valuable work experience for young people with wealth parents. You could say those young people consented to work for free (true) and therefore only young people currently working for free should be consulted, as long as they are happy and have made a choice, why should we intervene? However that overlooks the impact their choice has on the rest of society, particularly other young people who cannot afford to work for free and therefore lose out and also general society who lose the benefit of the most skilled people doing important jobs because only rich kids can apply.

With prostitution, survivor voices are important as well as voices of women generally who have to live in a society that tells them women are sex objects who can be bought by men for men's pleasure and that their own sexual desires and autonomy don't matter. There are also voices who cannot be heard - vulnerable women who don't have access to the internet or any other platform or are not articulate enough and survivors who want to forget the past and move on.

FloraFox · 05/02/2014 17:43

migs what is the right mindset?

BriarRainbowshimmer · 05/02/2014 17:45

Migsy, I too think your posts here have been brave.
If you ever feel like talking to someone who won't judge, check out the helpline Plentyposted about.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/02/2014 17:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

KimberlyC · 05/02/2014 17:45

My advertising makes it clear that I'm a mature, educated woman with options in life. My clients tend to pick me because of the way I write my profiles and website and blog (which includes a bunch of yammering on about my interests and hobbies.)

They would be dismayed to see a woman who seemed to not be happy with what they are doing. I'm sure there are plenty of men who do not give a crap one way or the other. Or, more likely, want to believe everything is OK and don't ask too many questions. But I have read many reviews on the punter sites where they express worry that a girl was not happy to be there. At any rate, the ones who see me generally seek out escorts who appear to be happy women with stable lives and interesting personalities.

I do think that they are perfectly decent men.

Yes, I am picky about whom I will see. I screen them over the phone. I can tell from the sound of their voices if they're going to be good clients. They sound happy and confident. If they say anything that I don't like over the phone or in written communication, I won't see them. Sometimes it's just the pitch of their voice, often it's some "off" thing they might say. I always go with my gut and I am very rarely wrong.

Sometimes I will see someone who is annoying - usually a boundary pusher. That's someone who tries to wheedle things I don't want to do or otherwise tries to get into my head via some sort of emotional manipulation. I can handle them because I'm a strong person who knows what she's about. I don't come across as someone who takes shit off of anybody and I quickly set them straight.

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 17:46

Its important all voices should be heard, although I suppose the legal outcome of any discussion will effect current workers more. Its a tough one but I feel that morality should be kept out of it.

KimberlyC · 05/02/2014 17:51

Buffy, of course you should have say in the debate. I don't want my sons to grow up thinking that they are entitled to pussy, either. That is, not in the way they are entitled to groceries or some other commodity.

However, "they can purchase consent if they can't find a willing partner to be something that oppresses me" is where we probably don't see eye-to-eye. I am a willing partner! I am not a grudging partner who is bribed into letting them fuck me. I enjoy doing it. Sometimes I enjoy it in a sexual way - I like sex as much as anybody else. Sometimes I just enjoy making people feel good. I certainly enjoy making money, and I make as much money as most of my clients.

I've been a waitress and that was harder and often more demeaning than being a prostitute.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 05/02/2014 17:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

migsy86 · 05/02/2014 17:51

The right mindset for me has been to separate myself from the job. Im not me when im at work. I use another name, wear different clothes and act differently too.