why 9 times out of 10 gifted doesn'tmean gifted.

[gracemargaret]

I have read many of the threads here and have been watching with amusement the whole G&T developments in education. I have two daughters who have both been placed on this register - one who was born truly "gifted" and has never ceased to amaze and frankly terrify me from the day she was born, and the other who is bright and quite academic and who is bound to do well in life with far less emotional difficulty along the way. My eldest daughter is eight - she spoke in sentences at 9 months of age was reading and writing before two - she has never really been a "child" - has never played with toys or other children (and I was a stay at home mum running a toddler group so she had plenty of opportunity!) Take her to a park and she will sit on a bench with a book. She is already far cleverer than either myself or her father and will spend hours in her room (if we let her) reading books and writing notes/constructing powerpoint presentations. As an example the other day I suggested going for a walk (it was raining) and she said she was rather "waterproof to that idea and was much more absorbant to the idea of staying at home" - she also likes home made food as "you can taste not just the ingredients but the effort too" Although she has us in stitches constantly with the things she says, her intelligence is far from a blessing as I worry about her constantly - she is so emotionally sensitive that she can hallucinate when upset and will taste words and smell voices - I am sure at some point she will be bullied as she is so obviously different and awkward and I can't see how she will ever develop as an adult able to deal with the realities of life (although will try my best to help her). My other daughter is an absolute joy - bright, very popular, high achiever and wonderfully within the realms of normal - she might be in the top 5% but is definitely not "gifted" despite what school might say and gives me far less reason to worry. Although I love both my daughters more than anything I still say nobody would choose a gifted child and what gifted children need most is not pushing to acheive (this is an inner drive they have anyway), but support, love, and help to try to adjust to a world where they may never feel they "belong". Good luck to everyone with gifted kids - and those with high achievers - know the difference - and realise how lucky you are!!

My DH strongly believes in private education, I don't. Reasons are that he came from a massive rough council estate in Stoke, where the teachers couldn't care less at the time. The attitude of all the children was the same as their parents i.e. leave school, get pregnant and get social money. I went to state school which was surrounded by villages. Most of my friends parents worked and my parents encouraged us to do well, the school had a fantastic name and is now a Beacon school.
My point here is that state education levels depend mostly on a catchment area.
I also think with the best will in the world some people are not bright and regardless of pushing will just not understand certain subjects. I think putting them into a school where most pupils are bright would lead to low self- esteem in the child, who probably would not keep up.

I went for a 2y check with dd yesterday, the HV said it was rare to find a child of her abilities at just 2yo. She is not a genius in a particular subject but her package of abilities are beyond her chronological age in all areas, emotional, physical and cognitive. She is very bright but not gifted.

We aren't having a 2 yr check here. Could I ask what she was looking at wrt your dd? My dd is a bright child and seems to be ahead for her age - but ALL the toddlers in our group are apparently way ahead - I guess they're all just bright toddlers.

It's certainly not wise to put a child in either the state of private sector into a school where everyone is brighter (or the other way around) and most schools in state and private sector have tests to ensure those who will not benefit from that education don't pass the exam so I think on the whole the system works quite well.

If parents can afford a good academic private day school for their children then that's a good choice for lots of reasons for a very clever child but if that means the child is put into a very alien environment because its background is very different then it's harder for them. On the other hand children from very poor homes who passed the old 11+ seemed to cope with moving into that different academic world of the grammar school and I don't think the disadvantage of perhaps alienation from your family or becoming different from them is so bad that the advantage you gain by the good education is disregarded.

it gets fairly simple for me - my siblings and I went to private schools and me and my siblings have all educated our children there from nursery school age upwards.

fwiw, we're already plotting our return to the state sector- we're planning on sending ours to our local 6th form/ fe college to do the IB, which I firmly believe to be a fantastic course, in what seems to be a wonderful college with broader opportunities socially than our son's current fee paying school. I also firmly believe that with education is it courses for horses- you need to look around at all the options available to you, rather than trying to shoehorn your child into your one-size-fits-all establishment. That way lies unhappiness. Also I am completely in favour of any argument for social mixing, but NOT at the expense of their education. Hence our rather eclectic approach to schooling of our children- we've always gone for what we considered the best option for him at any given time.

My son therefore has been to:

semi private playgroup
state nursery
state infants
private prep
state elementary (for a year in Canada)
private prep (11-13)
private senior (13-date)

plan: state 6th form

I meant "for them "

Acinonxy The test is a standard development test for most 2year old children. They are expected to be able to build a tower of 3 bricks, thread bobbins onto a shoe lace, name several familiar objects, check speech (expect about 50 words at 2 years) Show own eyes, nose, and mouth etc. Should be walking, climb stairs with help, throw a ball without falling. Should do a spontaneous scribble, turn the pages of a book, not take toys to mouth and can play alone for short periods.

The 3 year old check is

1. say sentences of 3+ words {dd talks in up to 6 word sentences)

2.speech clear to strangers (dd understood by strangers and can say words such as decorations, catapillar, elephant pronounced correctly) 3.understands use of test objects (dd built the tower and knocked it down before being asked).

1. walks up and downstairs unaided and run (dd can do this.)
2. can kick a ball and attemp to catch, again dd can do these.
3. Build a tower of 8-10 bricks and build a bridge with brick, dd can do this.
4. Matches colours (dd spontaneously tells you the colour of things without being asked i.e. says 'red car that one' etc.

8.holds a pencil and can copy o and + (dd can do o but not the + yet, however, during the test she drew 2 parallel lines and then when asked what it was replied 'belt'.

1. attempts to dress self, which dd does.

10. spontaneously plays with toys (dd is able to pretend play using vivid imagination, i.e. when playing with a toy garage she doesn't just watch cars sliding down the ramp but takes them up using the lift and remembers to fill them up with petrol at the pump. When playing with baby putting it in the cot for a sleep etc, blankets never cover her face, feet go at the bottom. She knows how to improvise i.e. turned the cot upside down to make a changing table without being shown or prompted.) 11. She is able to share toys well which is unusualy in her age group and will play with other children as opposed to along side them, knowing to take turns with things. 12. Feed self with knife/fork/spoon. (dd able to handle a fork and spoon well and learning how to use a knife.) 13. Attemps to wash own hands.(dd not only attempts to but can do this and insists on it after toilet, painting etc.) 13. Toilet trained by day (dd toilet trained already)

So looking at the test it appears she is at about the 3 year level already. Obviously this is not the only pointer list.
She also has understanding of and can answer questions related to past and future, not just the present, understands that she was once a baby and can distinguish between her baby cousin and herself on photos. Uses initiative such as if she sees me getting eggs and a frying pan out then she gets out the egg spatula for me, if I get potatoes out she gets the peeler and puts it with the potatoes. IYSWIM.

Tori, can I ask what she was like at 15mths? DD is this age and seems to be able to do alot more than I would expect. DS was 3 last week can can do everything on the list (he toilet trained before his 2nd birthday). But DD just seems unusually sparky. She can;

1. Use two word phrases such as more juice, up chair and bye bye daddy.
2. Uses yes,no,and more appropriately.
3. If you ask her to fetch something from another room, she can. She understands where it is likely to be without me saying eg it's in the kitchen. 4)As soon as she poos she will come and tuck you and say 'appy' (nappy) then start walking upstairs.
4. She plays appropriately with a doll that she has; Cuddling& kissing it and making slurping noises whilst she holds the plastic 'bobble' to the doll's mouth.

I'm not interested in pushing her. It's just that DS is bright (knows his alphabet sounds, can count objects to 20 etc) but I know he wasn't doing what she can do at the same age. I just wondered if this sounded familiar to you. Thanks.

Oh I've just realised I've typed her name. I'm going to ask for that post to be deleted in a little while.

Cushioncover had about 30 words but didn't put 2 together until about 18mths. She was very similar in the other respects though. She understood quite complexed instructions and could go and fetch things when asked without being told where it was, etc. Her speech just seems to have exploded since 18mths. She now sings nursery rhymes. At 15-18mths she began identifying her favourite books using words from the title so for 'cat in the hat' she would say 'cat, hat' etc. Now she asks using the full title.

Sorry that meant to read that dd had about 30 words...

Remember these are developmental checks, not IQ tests. It's actually surprisingly difficult to predict from these tests who will go onto become gifted because there isn't huge correlation between developmental rate and later IQ. (there is some but not as much as you might expect).

I'm not personally sure they're that great as developmental checks, ds2 passed his 2 year check (except for the speech- although he had previously said 50 words and had already been referred onto SALT anyway), but aged 8 he has a diagnosis of severe autism and severe learning difficulties.

DS3 - just 3- could do lots of those things on the list ages ago- but I think that just reflects having an older brother he worships.

take the walking up and down stairs- that's just a screening question/test for developmental dyspraxia - being able to do it early doesn't tell you much (except maybe that a child who can do it early is less likely to live in a house with stair gates) but doing it late does tell you something.

Oh I don't think she's gifted, she just seems bright as a button! I certainly wouldn't want it noted anywhere.

Totally agree about her being a second child as well. Most second/third babies I know seem to speak earlier.

TBH, I think developmental checks should be more about identifying children showing potential difficulties so maybe give a child a pass or a fail 1, 2 or 3 depending on the problem.

Was just curious cause at her age DS seemed so easy

I agree yurt that the developmental checks are mainly designed to flag up glaring problems such as dyspraxia, speech delay etc. As I said, I don't consider dd to be gifted or bright just because of these checks. Its more about her as a whole and her understanding of her world, perception etc.

Good posts, yurt!

The speaking earlier thing with subsequent children can also be reversed due to siblings pre empting what the youngster needs and asking for it first etc.

As I've said before, my dd was a freakishly early talker - appeared in the local paper and everything - she was a minor celebrity for about 6 months - but is now a bright but not exceptional 12 year old. Einstein, on the other hand, couldn't talk until he was 4. Most of the listed activities are either do with physical coordination (so nothing to do with intellectual ability) or "performing monkey" tricks, like my dd's speech or my ds's equally freakish ability to kick a ball accurately before he could walk. Don't waste time "testing" however informally, just play with them and enjoy them and read to them, and remember that before you know it, they are grown up and away. Nobody ever thought "I wish I'd spent more time testing their cognitive ability"

Seeker, I have to say that I find your post a little patronising.

I'm not remotely interested in testing her cognitive ability. I'm interested in her development, of course I am! I'm her mother.

Not all mums are desperate to have their children labelled as gifted. I would far rather she was just a happy, bright normally developing child than she was burdened with a true gift such as Gracemargaret's daughter.

Einstein was autistic though DS1 was actually a freakishly early talker- he started at 9 or 10 months and had been through quite a few words before losing them all aged 15 months, and has yet to speak again (aged 8 now, we're not actually waiting anymore).

God knows when ds2 or ds3 did anything. All I watched for was pointing by 18 months (ds2 was 12 months, ds3 a rather worrying 16 months & only after we'd taken him off cow's milk).

I wonder if it is even possible to predict giftedness in toddlers or pre-school children. Precociousness is not the same as genius and often levels out by the time children get to school age.

My SIL was incredibly precocious - was doing impressions at 18 months! I see the same precocity in her dd - wow! But academically SIL is very average. My dh on the other hand, was much slower developmentally, but today, he is clearly by far and away the brightest amongst his siblings.

Having older children who are now 23/21/19 all in further education I think makes you much more sanguine about early promise and how it will pan out over the next 20 years but I suppose in a sense if a parent decides their off spring is bright it can hardly do any harm. They will seek to bring it out, teach it, get it into the best pre prep they can find at 5. So it's a virtuous circle and if in fact it languishes later then at least it had its chance. My oldest is mildly dyslexic but quite clever. She only really came into her own in Habs senior school where handwriting, presentation and spelling were not as important as content. Now she's a pretty competent student and will do very well. Her sister who was reading at 3 etc and they couldnt' find in her school entrance test at 4 any book she couldn't read is less a confident person and not the oldest child (oldest children often do best)... all kinds of factors determine how you turn out.

Cushioncover - I have re read my post and it doesn't seem at all patronizing to me - but I apologize if you took it that way. It wasn't specifically addressed to you, actually it was a general plea for hands-off parenting. There's a wonderful book by Deborah Jackson called "Do Not Disturb" that certainly caused me to think very hard about my parenting when my dd was tiny.

Sorry for being touchy! I just think it's ok to be curious about your childrens' development without being at all interested in doing anything to affect it.

I agree.

But I realize now that I made a bit of a project out of my dd - I hadn't long left work (!). She was a very "advanced" baby and toddler (although, as I said, bright/average now) and I felt that I had to nurture her brilliance at all times. Very tedious I was with my PFB. I remember my mother saying that she wished she could buy dd a t shirt that said "This grows up automatically"!

I think ds is a much happier and more relaxed and laid back individual because I had learnt not to put him under a microscope and just let him grub about at will.