why 9 times out of 10 gifted doesn'tmean gifted.

[gracemargaret]

I have read many of the threads here and have been watching with amusement the whole G&T developments in education. I have two daughters who have both been placed on this register - one who was born truly "gifted" and has never ceased to amaze and frankly terrify me from the day she was born, and the other who is bright and quite academic and who is bound to do well in life with far less emotional difficulty along the way. My eldest daughter is eight - she spoke in sentences at 9 months of age was reading and writing before two - she has never really been a "child" - has never played with toys or other children (and I was a stay at home mum running a toddler group so she had plenty of opportunity!) Take her to a park and she will sit on a bench with a book. She is already far cleverer than either myself or her father and will spend hours in her room (if we let her) reading books and writing notes/constructing powerpoint presentations. As an example the other day I suggested going for a walk (it was raining) and she said she was rather "waterproof to that idea and was much more absorbant to the idea of staying at home" - she also likes home made food as "you can taste not just the ingredients but the effort too" Although she has us in stitches constantly with the things she says, her intelligence is far from a blessing as I worry about her constantly - she is so emotionally sensitive that she can hallucinate when upset and will taste words and smell voices - I am sure at some point she will be bullied as she is so obviously different and awkward and I can't see how she will ever develop as an adult able to deal with the realities of life (although will try my best to help her). My other daughter is an absolute joy - bright, very popular, high achiever and wonderfully within the realms of normal - she might be in the top 5% but is definitely not "gifted" despite what school might say and gives me far less reason to worry. Although I love both my daughters more than anything I still say nobody would choose a gifted child and what gifted children need most is not pushing to acheive (this is an inner drive they have anyway), but support, love, and help to try to adjust to a world where they may never feel they "belong". Good luck to everyone with gifted kids - and those with high achievers - know the difference - and realise how lucky you are!!

I don't think anyone said that you were bragging OR that your ds was rude, KKK, did they?

Don't think anyone did that, either!

People do seem to get very touchy about anything/anyone different, I suppose its pack mentality. The problem with having the G&T definition is that all parents feel that their kids are just as specical and how dare anyone say otherwise. We have problems quite often with this, our DS is said to be really really bright (we don't know, he is just who he is to us) it has caused problems, other people do comment on his attitude, speech, comments etc and have done since he was tiny. Problem is there are certain parents who are very twitchy about him and constantly seek to find something that their child is better at. None of it is nice, we worry for him as sometimes he finds social stuff with his peer group hard.

I certainly believe that children in the top 15% should go to academic schools. Those schools my children went to like that are in no way pushy or crammers or for what I term properly gifted but they are suitable for bright children who tend to do better in them. Sadly in most of the country you have to have a spare £8 - 10k a year after tax to be able to buy that for children unless they win a scholarship.

None of mine are quirky/eccentric bus timetable types, just average in the class in these academic schools and as teenagers more interested in socialising than work although they still mostly got As at A level like most people in those schools.

But now in my 40s and seeing how people I know have turned out in life how many exams you passed is by no means the most important thing in terms of success financially in life or even looking at my 3 at university - getting jobs - it's not who has the most A*s, it's whether you get on with the person interviewing you, whether you have social skills, can talk, are shy or not shy etc etc once you've met the basic good A levels and 2/1 degree from somewhere decent.

My sister's child will be better at the school he has just won a place at, without doubt because there will be other eccentric children there, there will be high performing dyslexics and also at 6 who knows what he will be like. He may change completely in the next few years.

I don't think moving up a year is always helpful although I was a year young at school and was 17 when I went to university. That was fine - one year because I was quite mature but more than that just makes the child not fit in. My brother was a year young too.

As for round pegs, all 5 of my chidlren are very different from each other and I like those differences. Some are more sociable than others and what I always aim to do is make them accept that child X isn't better than sibling Y just because one has 100 friends and the other 1 or whatever. It's just a difference. However they all benefit from some degree of learning how to behave with others, how to give talks, how to socialise, smile, look people in the eye, not make a fool of yourself, wear the right clothes. For some that is easy and natural. For others that is much harder. My own twins, one is much shyer than the other but cleverer and better at school. They had to give a talk to the class recently. The shy one found that much harder than his twin did.

If I had a very quirky child I would I suppose try to teach it what isn't a good idea (assuming it doesn't have some real special need rather than just being borderline aspergers or just a bit unusual) in terms of behaviour. I would aim to make it emotionally robust and try to find some hobby where it could excel. Becoming good at sport often really helps in schools for example - the nerd who does body building and ends up school champion is common in story lines because it can work as a tactic. Or just finding your niche at school with the outsiders can work too.

Well, apparently my daughter is gifted and talented in "brass" (as in the instrument - trumpet). With all the motherly love in the world I can't put the squeaks that come out of her bedroom in that category.

She has also been put on the register for other subjects where I can see more relevance. However, I see it for what it is - a data exercise that identifies the top 5% in a school at a given time. This is a fluid percentage - as children mature and develop that top 5% will change. Of course, it goes without saying that she is exceptional in my eyes but I would say that wouldn't I?!!

Also if everyone is a bit thick in a school then the top 5% there might be the bottom 5% in a different school so it's all a bit hard to see how it works unless we think most schools have the same spread of ability. Gifted in brass can be great. My son got up to grade 8 trumpet and to hear him a my mother's funeral playing was marvellous and solos in front of 1000 boys, music scholarship at 13 etc etc So don't diss the brass playing. What I did find helped at the start was when I accompanied on the piano which has the dual advantage that it covers up the bad notes (but it's nothing like as bad as an early violin player anyway) and you're doing it together with them.

My daughter is gifted in brass too - as in "walking in here, bold as brass....." as her Yorkshire grandma would say!

In redponse to arfishy's query pg 2 - He's a careworker and I'm in sales - Both went to Uni but he didn't finish and I scraped a pass. Think my IQ' came out quite high when tested at university but neither of us are clever in the same way as dd1 - one of hardest thing is discipline as she is much better at aguing than either of us. Thankfully so far - apart from the whole emotion thing, she's been pretty well behaved! Really interesting to read about experience/thoughts of others

I've just logged in and seen this [not stalking emoticon]

Thanks for answering, and isn't that interesting where the giftedness comes from?

What sort of support is out there for dealing with giftedness? Is there any? As you mentioned, I think these children definitely need help with fitting in, as they think so differently.

Out of interest, what do you hope for for your DD? With her abilities would you like her to channel them into something for the greater good, or just hope that she's happy and content with her life? Or maybe both .

I hope this isn't intrusive, I'm just genuinely interested. I think it must be very difficult knowing what to do for the best with such a gifted child.

They will be happiest as hedge fund managers on over £1m a year. That's the best route. You can be happy earning a lot of money and if you're clever why not go that route.... so you plan a campaign so she never becomes disaffected with school,pick the best schools you can hopefully scholarships if they need to be fee paying schools and chart a route to an Oxbridge first, lots of useful work experience, stellar CV in terms of hobbies and work back from there.

Why will they be happiest as top-earning fund managers? That's nonsense. Struggling financially is miserable and can lead to all sorts of strains, and having 'enough' money can ease those pressures but there's no evidence to suggest that being rich makes you happier.

I would advise any child, gifted or not, to find something that they enjoy doing and that hopefully pays enough for a comfortable life. I certainly wouldn't necessarily work backwards from Oxbridge because that's not always the right route for some people, and for some subjects their courses aren't the best anyway. I would look at what skills and interests the child had and where they could lead in terms of career, then look at the right sort of course for that.

Simply because to be very successful you usually need good brains so if you're clever you might as well go for it and see how far you can go.

Really nice to enjoy what you're doing and earn a lot too... speaking from experience here although not in hedge funds. Many parents do the working backwards thing - want children at good universities so therefore certain schools help you get in there and certain primaries feed in to those and some nursery schools feed into those etc. Of course not everyone wants to play that game and many might want their child outside of capitalism, in a commune, working the land or cleaning toilets. You might as well however have work you really enjoy and is very well paid. Surely that's better than really enjoy your work but the pay is awful.

But xenia for some people money really isn't a factor in happiness. There's research to show that- as long as you have enough money to meet your basic needs/be comfortable then anything on top makes no difference to happiness at all. You're never going to understand this as you are so materialistic and status orientated (I'm not saying that in a derogatory way - just as an assessment after reading your posts). Not everyone is like that. Even some clever people aren't like that.

Of course I know and agree with that but if you have a choice poor and happy or rich and happy why not go for rich and happy? Surely that's self evidence unless someone is very religious, rich man can never enter the kingdom of heaven kind of stuff.

I'm just saying it's as likely you will be happy running BP as being a care assistant in a care home. So I'd rather my children had the money and the happiness.

Lots of clever people have no interest in money although sometimes when it comes to not being able to afford school fees or a nice house or help with cleaning or a new dress they might rather regret they picked the worthy low paid work that they did. I think one issue with children is to ensure they don't m ake career choices in their 20s when they are idealistic and non materialistic which mean they will cut off forever the chance to earn a certain amount for a lifestyle they might want in their 40s.

Amusingly I worked out today all 3 of my older ones will start work in Sept 2009 for various reasons. We know what the oldest will do but I wonder about the other 2 if they choose to work at all. They might want a life on state benefits or in a monastery or whatever.

xenia you live in a parallel universe to many, really you do. I went to Oxford and have a low paid job, my best friend from college is now a mutli-millionaire. I can honestly say that when we visit I don't go green with envy and wish had her trappings (if I'd wanted them I would have done the same as her and gone into the City). It doesn't feature.

I personally would be happier being a care assistant that running BP (more meaningful work- making a difference to individuals).

Now I can understand your position, why can't you understand that for many people money/status/power are irrelevant, and therefore your assumptions on what is needed to enjoy a happy life are not included in their decision making.

My son is very bright and we are 'loaded'.
His father has made every penny we have ( added ably by me both working and SAHM). DH takes him into work regularly so that DS1 can see what a boring bunch of self important tosser form a large proprtion of his collegues in the city.
Dh gets a certian enjoyment from being extremely good at his job and he is very happy with the salary, benefits, equity etc.
It still keeps him away from home longer than he would like and coming home to a huge house is all very well but he would rather be in it playing with his kids and walking the dog.
He works his arse off to educate our children and to provide for DS2 who will need a whole heap of money for care through his life time.
If DS1 wanted to become a money making grey suit I think we would be quietly pretty disappointed. After all we all want what is best for our children.
He currently wants to go to university and forge a creer working to help kids with special needs. Or play cricket for England. Or teach classics at the school he currently attends.
all of those would suit us fine.
Spending 9 - 5 , 5 days a week doing something you have little passion for just so you can have a flash car and a fuck off house really isn't great.
and I say that as someone who is living in that enviroment.
Ideally be paid a shed load to do something you love. If not be paid not so much to do something you love. Lastly if you have to do something tedious try and be well paid. If all else fails do what most people do and do somthing that is OK to make ends meet.

Money does not equal happiness. It can only make being unhappy less stressful.

pagwatch: I agree. at the idea of hedge fund managership as being something I should aspire to as being "....as far as I can go"

I love the fact that aged 14 he believes that one day he will be able to help cure ASD or help the kids who have it. Now that is aspiration !

Yes, but most of the people who are really successful actually love what they do and would continue with it even if they won the lottery. That's often the key reason for success - the love of the work or so I've found. If people aren't happy they should change their lives and jobs not just whinge about it.

I have never said money makes you happy but I think you get more power an choice in life as a woman (or a man) if you earn a lot, even if it's just choice to make a lot and give it up to live off the interest or earn a lot so you can give a lot away to your own personal charitable projects etc.

well my multi-millionaire friend didn't - she gave it up to do something worthy part time.

Of course you get more power- but that's not important to everyone. Nor is status or material goods. You answer every question on this board with the assumption that everyone wants a lot of a money and a high powered job; that's simply not true.

And I PMSL at the idea of a hedge funder manager being aspirational too.

I don't think everyone wants power or money. I do think that if you earn quite a bit you have more choice in life and in fact stress levels are worse for people in call centres and factory production lines than in the so called stressful top jobs as are the rates of heart attacks. It's is when you are the mercy of others at the bottom of the food chain that you can suffer most. Plenty of people sell their business and are bored and start another because it was never the money it was the pleasure in the work that they liked. I would continue my work even if I won £10m and I am sure my father who practised psychiatry and loved it would have continued whether paid or not.

If you've a clever child they might as well do something well paid as that tends to make life easier (refer her to countless threads on mumsnet of people who cannot afford good child care, nice holidays, wants XYZ and lack of money is the problem for them). That does not mean however that the same issues appear whatever you earn in terms of life like deaths and relationships going wrong or poor mental or physical health although even then if you have some money paths can be eased.