Bright child has no friends at preschool

[Tetherless]

My son started at preschool in September, having turned 3 last May (so is still 3). He’d never been to childcare before and we’d had a very isolated existence during covid as all family live abroad and we had to shield for the first lockdown. He struggled a lot settling in initially - wouldn’t sit with other children at meals, cried at drop off etc - but by the end of the first term he was joining in with everything, got on really well with the staff and seemed to me to have made huge progress.

He didn’t play with other kids at all at first but now does to a limited degree (apparently mainly when he can lead the activity). He much prefers talking to the adults. The staff have said that they are concerned with his social communication because he doesn’t have friends yet and have mentioned ASD as something they are thinking about.

DS is and always has been incredibly advanced - he met all milestones early, particularly those relating to communication (babbled with consonants at 4 months, pointing and first words at 8 months, sentences at 13 months). His maths is similarly advanced and he is extremely musical. He can read pretty well (on year 1 books atm). He is incredibly sensitive, imaginative, has a fantastic memory and sense of humour and is creative with a very wide range of interests. Motor skills wise he walked early, could ride a bike before he was 3, draws really well and starting to write. He has no sensory issues, eats and sleeps well and I have never considered him to have any kind of rigidness in terms of approach to routines. He’s generally pretty flexible but will sometimes kick off if he doesn’t get what he wants (which I thought was typical of his age). He is a bit of a stickler for the rules when playing games and that’s one of the things that nursery has cited (in addition to his preference for talking to adults) as “evidence” that he may be on the spectrum.

It has never crossed my mind that he is anything other than a bright but neurotypical child. Quite how bright I’m not sure. I feel that his issues making friends and preferring adults stem from a combination of natural shyness (DH and I both shy, academically high achieving kids), lack of practice due to covid and being used to being with adults, and difficulty engaging with peers whose language and interests are very different from his.

I feel that nursery has totally got it wrong but am conscious of course that they have a lot of experience (though possibly not with a child with this particular combination of circumstances). I feel slightly trapped in a parallel universe where they are seeing a completely different child from the one we see at home. They don’t seem to see his intelligence as a factor in his interactions with peers and seem keen to label him which seems crazy to me.

Should I be concerned? Is there anything I should be saying/doing with them or with him? Do I need to help him more with friendships or will it come with time? I feel slightly at a loss.

but I am not, for a moment supposing the people suggesting that are school or Nursery SENCos.
That is a bit of a leap.

@5zeds that’s not what I am saying.

What I am saying is that it is very rare to have a very high IQ without some form of neurodiversity. Which may or may not be autism

I'd agree that giftedness is a form of neurodiversity, which is different from saying that giftedness is the same as autism (though some people will be both autistic and gifted, of course). I don't know what percentage of Oxbridge students are in the gifted range. I do know that many gifted students don't do well in school at all.

Thank you too @Kite22

I’m in Ireland, under changes brought in teachers decide who is most in need of support in their classrooms

Teachers can choose to ignore professional reports if they wish. Many have inadequate training in SEN.

Parents in ireland have been trying to get high iq / giftedness recognised as a special educational need so these children get the support they need to reach their potential.

The unfortunate effect of teacher assessment is that children who have needs but can self regulate in a class are sidelined for those who cause teaching challenges. It’s a pity as again girls are largely being sidelined in favour of the boy.

What I am saying is that it is very rare to have a very high IQ without some form of neurodiversity. Which may or may not be autism unless you feel high IQ itself is neurodiverse I’d say not. I haven’t seen any stats though and I’m not sure “very high IQ” or “neurodiversity” are defined tightly enough to be able to find some. It’s clear that the boundaries of who does or doesn’t have asd are very blurred for some posters let alone even looser terms.

Early reading is not in itself a sign of autism. Early reading and hyperlexia are distinct. The latter is generally associated with ASD and is characterised by an obsessive or compulsive preoocupation with letters and reading, mostly without comparable comprehension, whereas the former (particularly when with comprehension and as part of a pattern of early milestones) is generally associated with high ability (giftedness).
Small poppies: Highly gifted children in the early years by Professor Miraca Gross is worth reading.

Gifted children often display a marked preference for the company of adults or older children. They also have a strong sense of fairness/justice. They may have little interest in playing with age peers whose language, communication and interests significantly lag their own.
www.spart5.net/cms/lib07/SC01000802/Centricity/Domain/491/Characteristics_Scale.pdf

Pre-school and school teaching staff often have no experience of or training concerning highly or exceptionally gifted children and may misunderstand what they are seeing and misattribute behaviours associated with giftedness to something else they think they are familiar with.
www.sengifted.org/post/misdiagnosis-and-dual-diagnosis-of-gifted-children

[quote extrastrongmints]Early reading is not in itself a sign of autism. Early reading and hyperlexia are distinct. The latter is generally associated with ASD and is characterised by an obsessive or compulsive preoocupation with letters and reading, mostly without comparable comprehension, whereas the former (particularly when with comprehension and as part of a pattern of early milestones) is generally associated with high ability (giftedness).
Small poppies: Highly gifted children in the early years by Professor Miraca Gross is worth reading.

Gifted children often display a marked preference for the company of adults or older children. They also have a strong sense of fairness/justice. They may have little interest in playing with age peers whose language, communication and interests significantly lag their own.
www.spart5.net/cms/lib07/SC01000802/Centricity/Domain/491/Characteristics_Scale.pdf

Pre-school and school teaching staff often have no experience of or training concerning highly or exceptionally gifted children and may misunderstand what they are seeing and misattribute behaviours associated with giftedness to something else they think they are familiar with.
www.sengifted.org/post/misdiagnosis-and-dual-diagnosis-of-gifted-children[/quote]
Very interesting and enlightening points!

@extrastrongmints wow what great read

@extrastrongmints

I think you’re implying that school teaching staff wouldn’t know giftedness because they’d never met it.

Just to set you straight: I’m a teacher. I could recognise notes when I was 18 months old (perfect pitch), read before I was at preschool, achieved grade 8 in myriad instruments at a young age, went to Oxford. I probably would have been classed as gifted as a child.

I also had horrific anxiety, struggled to relate to my peers, had executive dysfunction, felt like I hadn’t got the memo, had random phobias, couldn’t cope away from home, couldn’t cope with change, stopped eating, had all the signs of being ND.

Giftedness is not a diagnosis. I’ve been teaching for 18 years and have met a few exceptionally clever/talented children, but they struggled in other ways. It’s a teacher’s job to support children who are struggling, whilst acknowledging that they are indeed very bright, and being supportive of this.

@Tetherless
One thing I would say from my experience with my own ds is that early diagnosis of autism leads to better outcomes for the individual as support is put in place earlier. My own ds was diagnosed at 12 after horrible experiences in school and with other children. I never had any support from any health or education professional despite many red flags.

I think what I'm trying to say is that you are being offered advice and support by professionals who are likely to have experience of ASD. For your ds sake it's worth exploring. You have lost nothing if there is no diagnosis but you will have gained him support and understanding IF he needs it.

My ds relished finally getting a diagnosis as he finally understood why he felt different. But he waited 12 important and formative years to gain this understanding. You're being given the opportunity to get this understanding, if it's needed, early. This could be really valuable to your child.

Is there evidence that early diagnosis leads to better outcomes now? (Genuinely interested NOT anti diagnosis.)

@BelleTheBananas I think you’re implying that school teaching staff wouldn’t know giftedness because they’d never met it. oh I didn’t read it like that at all. I thought the ideas were interesting particularly about physically advanced children and peoples reaction to that in contrast to academically advanced. Weirdly (given my own family) I had never thought about early walking/motor control in relation to high IQ. Good for thought. It may not be the norm but I don’t think at nursery age reading/counting/logic are celebrated if they are beyond the expected level.

[quote BelleTheBananas]@extrastrongmints

I think you’re implying that school teaching staff wouldn’t know giftedness because they’d never met it.

Just to set you straight: I’m a teacher. I could recognise notes when I was 18 months old (perfect pitch), read before I was at preschool, achieved grade 8 in myriad instruments at a young age, went to Oxford. I probably would have been classed as gifted as a child.

I also had horrific anxiety, struggled to relate to my peers, had executive dysfunction, felt like I hadn’t got the memo, had random phobias, couldn’t cope away from home, couldn’t cope with change, stopped eating, had all the signs of being ND.

Giftedness is not a diagnosis. I’ve been teaching for 18 years and have met a few exceptionally clever/talented children, but they struggled in other ways. It’s a teacher’s job to support children who are struggling, whilst acknowledging that they are indeed very bright, and being supportive of this.[/quote]
Porter cites research showing that teachers in pre-school and early primary fail to identify the majority of gifted children in their care, whereas parent identification is consistently more reliable. I also referred more specifically to highly and exceptionally gifted children. i.e. those with index scores in the top 0.1% or 0.01% of the population. The inexperience and lack of training of teachers in dealing with this population is a point made quite explicitly in the first source I linked above and in more detail by the same author here. Or, as Jim Delisle put it: "It should be against the law to put a teacher in front of a classroom of children about whom she or he knows nothing. With highly gifted children, though, this happens all the time"

"Just to set you straight ..." : Your sample size of one says nothing about the general incidence of neurdivergence among the gifted population. Centres such as GDC in Denver have studied thousands of gifted children and conclude that roughly 15% of gifted children have some form of coexisting difficulty or neurodivergence, making them twice-exceptional. That means that at least 85% of gifted children have no specific clinical issue. Every child has personal strengths and weaknesses and may have good and bad days, but your various statements on this thread that all gifted children struggle because you struggled are simply false generalisations.

"Giftedness is not a diagnosis" : I didn't say that it was. Giftedness is a special educational need, and is legally recognised as such in many jurisdictions, including Scotland, though not in England. It can exist in isolation - kids can be "just gifted" - or in coexistence with difficulties or neurodivergence. But what you have maintained throughout this thread is that all gifted children struggle, so whenever signs of giftedness are present, one should look for another diagnosis. That reasoning is spurious. The majority of gifted kids are "just gifted" and early reading in the majority of cases indicates nothing more than high ability. A philosophical belief that all gifted kids must have associated clinical issues will lead to armchair misdiagnoses.

For my son who is/ was considered highly gifted I was called into school nursery within days of him starting. I had kept him at home until he began just before his fourth birthday. I knew he was bright enough but had no idea he was exceptionally so. I remember nursery teacher rolling her eyes when she learned he hadn't been in childcare but he strolled in happy and confident without a backward glance.
Teacher asked for a meeting because I hadn't told them he could read and write in sentences with capitals and full stops or that he was teaching himself how to multiply ( I knew he was good with numbers because he had a vtech computer toy for a child much older that he had no trouble with the sums on that)
They did call in the Ed psych who ascertained he was highly gifted. Back then the options were that he went into higher year groups and at the end of primary they had a teacher from the local secondary come in a couple of times each half term to teach/ leave him work. He loved school he was popular had lots of friends and joined the football team, took part in all productions, got school to start a chess club which led to a school league and he then played for County.
He was a pain in secondary became disruptive because he was bored. Got a degree and a masters with little to no effort and now is very happy in a niche role in financial systems.
It wasn't until secondary and his behaviour being difficult that the maths teacher questioned ASD probably because he could do complex maths in his head quicker than most would write the question (rainman was a well known film then) but he has none of the social or communication difficulties to warrant an assessment.

Op gently can I suggest you examine why you feel so defensive about this suggestion? You seem so focused on his shyness and him being clever I cant help but wonder if even the possibility of him not being this makes you doubt yourself as a parent?

Personally - I have no medical degree - I actually think everyone is ND and noone is NT . But then doesnt that make us all NT?

Years ago dd3 had a teacher who was convinced she was on the autistic spectrum. I was equally convinced she was not. We went for the assessments she was diagnosed with socialshyness disorder. She is 18 now and is pursuing an ADHD diagnosis. None of us even considered this.

I know you have said you will takenit further but please do and perhaps consider some counselling for yourself around your feelings on this.

Personally - I have no medical degree - I actually think everyone is ND and noone is NT . But then doesnt that make us all NT? smile
don’t be ridiculous

Sounds exactly like my son. He's 19 now and diagnosed ASD at 13.

[quote BelleTheBananas]@extrastrongmints

I think you’re implying that school teaching staff wouldn’t know giftedness because they’d never met it.

Just to set you straight: I’m a teacher. I could recognise notes when I was 18 months old (perfect pitch), read before I was at preschool, achieved grade 8 in myriad instruments at a young age, went to Oxford. I probably would have been classed as gifted as a child.

I also had horrific anxiety, struggled to relate to my peers, had executive dysfunction, felt like I hadn’t got the memo, had random phobias, couldn’t cope away from home, couldn’t cope with change, stopped eating, had all the signs of being ND.

Giftedness is not a diagnosis. I’ve been teaching for 18 years and have met a few exceptionally clever/talented children, but they struggled in other ways. It’s a teacher’s job to support children who are struggling, whilst acknowledging that they are indeed very bright, and being supportive of this.[/quote]
@BelleTheBananas are you saying that because you were gifted AND struggled with other issues that all gifted children must? I don’t get your point.

As I’ve said repeatedly on this thread, both DH and I were probably what would have been called “gifted” as children and had no issues whatsoever, socially or otherwise. I was shy but always had close friends; DH the same.

DS is certainly very bright but not on a “rain man” level, and nothing like the child a pp described who could write and multiply at nursery school. He’s probably 1-2 school years ahead in reading and maths (not writing - he’s only just forming letters but his drawing is brilliant) with, as I said, no particular areas of interest.

His nursery have sent me videos of him interacting with other children and he’s clearly nervous but when prompted his engagement is totally natural and appropriate - turn taking and working together to build something. I’m really glad they are doing these smaller group sessions with him as he is clearly benefiting. Presumably if he had a diagnosis now they wouldn’t be doing anything differently and it will be the same in primary school.

We are fortunate enough to be able to pay for private testing if needed - is there any reason why this is less good than getting on an NHS waiting list?

@Enko

Op gently can I suggest you examine why you feel so defensive about this suggestion? You seem so focused on his shyness and him being clever I cant help but wonder if even the possibility of him not being this makes you doubt yourself as a parent?

Personally - I have no medical degree - I actually think everyone is ND and noone is NT . But then doesnt that make us all NT?

Years ago dd3 had a teacher who was convinced she was on the autistic spectrum. I was equally convinced she was not. We went for the assessments she was diagnosed with socialshyness disorder. She is 18 now and is pursuing an ADHD diagnosis. None of us even considered this.

I know you have said you will takenit further but please do and perhaps consider some counselling for yourself around your feelings on this.

Tbh I’m not sure why it isn’t blatantly obvious that it might be upsetting to be told your child may have a disability by someone who is totally unqualified to say that, on the basis of very limited evidence.

Also pretty annoying to have strangers on the internet extrapolate from the fact that DH and I went to Oxbridge that we and our families and friends are probably also disabled but just not mature enough to recognise it yet.

Just be careful some private diagnoses are not recognised, there are some people quite happy to take money from concerned parents but have no real qualifications.

But why would you want to go private if you could go through NHS?

I would say the NHS assessment is better. The process is much more rounded and communication between the different professionals is key. (Eg it’s easier to get a LA or NHS assessor into a classroom than a private one and teachers will be expected to provide help etc to state funded assessors). The outcome will be more accepted than private diagnosis. It’s expensive (week at centre parcs not long haul) and you’ve already paid for it through taxes. Most importantly though I think is that the NHS assessment was thorough and I felt extremely impressive. I really don’t subscribe to high intelligence implying autism though so for me he sounds bright not autistic.

That's very interesting, extrastrongmints, thanks for those links. You mentioned that 85% of gifted children have no special clinical issue. I wonder does that figure include the larger numbers of mildly gifted children - ie does the probability of having other issues increase with IQ? Just curious really.
I do still think the OP should seek professional assessment and guidance. Whether it's giftedness or autism (or both or neither) the nursery staff are picking up on something a bit out of the ordinary. An assessment could be a positive additional step in supporting the OP's son as he starts his journey through the educational system (and life!). He may be too young to properly assess for giftedness, I'm not sure when's the best time for that, but it's something I'd look into. Studies have shown that autism can be identified reliably from age two - although 1 in 4 children are 'missed' at this stage and are diagnosed later, only about 1 in 50 are misdiagnosed as having it when they do not. I think it's generally accepted that the earlier you can diagnose autism the better, 5zeds. Research has shown that early intervention improves outcomes, though you're right in that they haven't looked so much at how outcome varies by age of intervention specifically.
The only advantage of going private is that it's usually much quicker Tetherless. Very important to get the right professionals too of course. Again, if nursery staff are wrong there's not much harm done (except to your pocket if going private), but if they're right it would be wise to act.

@toomuchlaundry

Just be careful some private diagnoses are not recognised, there are some people quite happy to take money from concerned parents but have no real qualifications.

But why would you want to go private if you could go through NHS?

Just that it would be quicker. Numerous posters have said that it can take years and therefore good to get on the pathway now.

Just that it would be quicker. Numerous posters have said that it can take years and therefore good to get on the pathway now.

Quicker is not always better. I agree with the poster who said the NHS process is best - it takes feedback from a range of sources (parents, nursery, S&L, school, ed psych) and even the slow process is no bad thing where the child is referred young. I have noticed it moves quickly in obvious cases, and slowly where the outcome is unclear.

With private diagnoses there is the risk that they can be bought easily in some cases, which makes all private diagnoses less credible.

@Tetherless

We went for private assessment for DS1 for both ASD and ADHD. The waiting list is 4 years in our area. School had him on the SEN register from reception anyway, and already had everything in place. The only thing to come from the diagnoses is that he’s medicated for ADHD, which has improved school immeasurably.

NHS is necessarily best, both of my children were diagnosed privately (and later by the NHS) and so was I. The speed was what allowed us to get an EHCP in place for my child before she started school meaning she has literally never been unsupported in school. We are all so called 'high functioning' autistic females, would have been diagnosed as Aspergers in times gone by. I wasn't diagnosed until my late 30s.

County councils aren't allowed to just 'not accept' a private diagnosis as long as it has been carried out by a properly qualified professional working within NICE guidelines. They are perfectly acceptable for EHCPs, etc. If they dispute this they should be robustly challenged and they will back down.

My children sound a lot like your little boy OP. They are both advanced academically, have always been early on motor skills etc, early readers, early speakers. I was the same. We're definitely all autistic though! (I have ADHD too for good measure).

Nursery don't make such suggestions lightly and they aren't trying to label him. It is not a bad thing if he is autistic, especially is he is academically able, it just means he will need some different support as he grows and let me tell you our preschool pointing it out to me is the best thing that could have happened for my child and our family as a whole. Early intervention is so important and if he is autistic then knowing as early as possible gives you and him a massive advantage.