Bright child has no friends at preschool

[Tetherless]

My son started at preschool in September, having turned 3 last May (so is still 3). He’d never been to childcare before and we’d had a very isolated existence during covid as all family live abroad and we had to shield for the first lockdown. He struggled a lot settling in initially - wouldn’t sit with other children at meals, cried at drop off etc - but by the end of the first term he was joining in with everything, got on really well with the staff and seemed to me to have made huge progress.

He didn’t play with other kids at all at first but now does to a limited degree (apparently mainly when he can lead the activity). He much prefers talking to the adults. The staff have said that they are concerned with his social communication because he doesn’t have friends yet and have mentioned ASD as something they are thinking about.

DS is and always has been incredibly advanced - he met all milestones early, particularly those relating to communication (babbled with consonants at 4 months, pointing and first words at 8 months, sentences at 13 months). His maths is similarly advanced and he is extremely musical. He can read pretty well (on year 1 books atm). He is incredibly sensitive, imaginative, has a fantastic memory and sense of humour and is creative with a very wide range of interests. Motor skills wise he walked early, could ride a bike before he was 3, draws really well and starting to write. He has no sensory issues, eats and sleeps well and I have never considered him to have any kind of rigidness in terms of approach to routines. He’s generally pretty flexible but will sometimes kick off if he doesn’t get what he wants (which I thought was typical of his age). He is a bit of a stickler for the rules when playing games and that’s one of the things that nursery has cited (in addition to his preference for talking to adults) as “evidence” that he may be on the spectrum.

It has never crossed my mind that he is anything other than a bright but neurotypical child. Quite how bright I’m not sure. I feel that his issues making friends and preferring adults stem from a combination of natural shyness (DH and I both shy, academically high achieving kids), lack of practice due to covid and being used to being with adults, and difficulty engaging with peers whose language and interests are very different from his.

I feel that nursery has totally got it wrong but am conscious of course that they have a lot of experience (though possibly not with a child with this particular combination of circumstances). I feel slightly trapped in a parallel universe where they are seeing a completely different child from the one we see at home. They don’t seem to see his intelligence as a factor in his interactions with peers and seem keen to label him which seems crazy to me.

Should I be concerned? Is there anything I should be saying/doing with them or with him? Do I need to help him more with friendships or will it come with time? I feel slightly at a loss.

@OutlookStalking

Also not sure what "He is incredibly sensitive, imaginative, has a fantastic memory and sense of humour and is creative with a very wide range of interests" has to do with it. This would describe most autistic people I know 🤣. I'm interested in everything but sadly dont have the great memory.

Similarly someone earlier mentioned empathy. Its a myth autistic people dont have empathy/arent creative etc.

Yes exactly.

Also yes in the empathy - that was debunked years ago and it's tiresome to hear ignorant people still spouting that nonsense. The autistic people I know and generally some of the most empathetic and I'm glad scientific studies have proved that people claiming otherwise are talking nonsense.

Autism is very disabling for lots of people, GiraffesInScarfs (including my DS). Many don't identify with the 'autism is a superpower' type of narrative that has become popular.

@GiraffesInScarfs

I feel the nursery were wrong to mention ASD, even if that is their concern, as that can be very difficult for a parent to hear if they didn't suspect it themselves

Why? What is wrong with being autistic?

Sorry, quote fail on my above comment.

@Clockstooforward

Ok so I have skimmed the thread OP .My 26 year old son had all the characteristics of ASD when he was young…articulate,adult company,obsessive behaviour,ridiculous intelligence blah blah blah! But he was never assessed…never crossed my mind to have it done!! He is now an ecologist and enjoying life. He went to a top Uni ,enjoyed his student life and just happy! He is actually lovely as well.X

Yeah. Lots of us who has parents whose minds it never crossed to get their children assessed despite the obvious signs really suffered emotionally as a result, especially at school, because we didn't have any support of self-understanding as a result of that negligence.

I am also very "successful" in terms of finances/ career. That does NOT make the parental negligence/ denial of who I am or the trauma that caused ok.

Not picking up on signs your son may have needed help and getting him the right assessments and support, if so, is not something to be proud of. If he didn't need them, no harm done. If he did, massive harm done.

Many of the autistic people I know were only diagnosed in adulthood because of attitudes like yours. Many of their parents still have no idea because - due to said attitudes - there is no point in even telling them about the diagnosis.

I don't think you have anything to be smug about.

@BessieFinknottle

Autism is very disabling for lots of people, GiraffesInScarfs (including my DS). Many don't identify with the 'autism is a superpower' type of narrative that has become popular.

I don't believe I have said anything about "superpowers" 🙄🙄

We are different to you, yes. Does it make things difficult for us? Yes, because the world is not designed for us. It is a struggle every day. Do we also have understanding of things that other people don't have? Yes. Are we capable of many things average NT people can't do? Yes. And the whole "social communication difficulties" part seems largely to be that some NT people struggle to communicate with some autistic people.

I find some NT people hard work, but many are good friends. The ones that don't expect ritual lying, mostly. I have found my groups of autistic friends the most empathetic, altruistic, kind and supportive of any group of people I've ever known.

Essentially these "communication differences" are mainly as far as I can see - in the absence of added learning difficulties etc which NT or autistic people can have - mainly driven by NT people not understanding autistic people. Whereas most autistic people I know understand both other autistic people and NT people to an extent - because they have had to learn to.

Like with most things in life, these extreme views your post refers to are ridculous and the truth is in the middle.

I agree with some of what you say, GiraffeInScarfs, and I know you didn't mention superpowers, though I must say I'm curious about this part of your post
Do we also have understanding of things that other people don't have? Yes. Are we capable of many things average NT people can't do? Yes

I do think the difficulties of autism are sometimes downplayed a lot, or, these days, often attributed to an accompanying intellectual disability rather than to autism itself. Of course I can only speak of my own son's experience and our family's experience. My DS is very bright and doesn't have problems with language, but is very disabled by his condition, which includes anxiety and other MH difficulties stemming directly from his autism. At times it is very debilitating and his life is very much reduced by his autism.

In your post above, if I understand it correctly, you're emphasising that autism is a difference and that the struggles come mainly from interacting with NTs and with a world designed for them. I've heard this said before. But I have to tell you it doesn't describe my son's life, not even close. His trials seem mainly to come from within, his environment is very controlled. For him, autism is without doubt a disability as well as a difference. Hiis struggles are something no parent would wish their child to endure.

I think that is what the OP is afraid of.
And to answer your question, that's what's so bad about autism, for my DS at least.

@BessieFinknottle

Autism is very disabling for lots of people, GiraffesInScarfs (including my DS). Many don't identify with the 'autism is a superpower' type of narrative that has become popular.

Autistic people can absolutely suffer which is awful and I'm sorry your son struggles. Autistic people can also thrive, be successful and happy and they can be everything in between. Autism isn't a superpower but equally it's not a death sentence it's just a different normal.

I think to fit the criteria and be described as autistic you must have significant impairment and deficits. I don’t think those can be described as just “differences”. It’s a disability rather than a “difference in ability” which I think minimises the nature of the condition. That doesn’t mean that autism is “a death sentence” or you can’t be happy and successful any more than any other disability does.

From reading this thread i have absolutely no idea what it means to have autism. How can there be a diagnosis for something that does not have any characteristics common amongst people? I understand it’s on a spectrum but even then it seems it’s not that some people have specific symptoms to a greater or lesser degree. Can anyone tell me what it means to be autistic then? For me the basic thing was social communication and empathy yet someone above said some autistic people are very empathetic.

I'm really confused by all these comments. It sounds like anyone and everyone can be autistic. How on earth do you know?

To have autism you need to fit the diagnostic criteria. Mostly people now use DSM V (though in the uk icd 10/11 is correct I think).

@anotheranon22

From reading this thread i have absolutely no idea what it means to have autism. How can there be a diagnosis for something that does not have any characteristics common amongst people? I understand it’s on a spectrum but even then it seems it’s not that some people have specific symptoms to a greater or lesser degree. Can anyone tell me what it means to be autistic then? For me the basic thing was social communication and empathy yet someone above said some autistic people are very empathetic.

Empathy isn't a diagnostic criteria for autism though many autistic people struggle with "theory of mind" which is understanding/inferring what someone else is thinking.

Diagnostic criteria involves having difficulties in social interaction, social communication and repetitive or restrictive behaviour, that begin in early childhood.

How those things manifest can be hugely different for different individuals and some maybe mask their difficulties. Which is why diagnosis is a process involving a team of professionals eg paediatricians, psychologists, speech & language therapists.

You can't diagnose (or rule out) autism over the internet, a child who is assessed won't be accidentally diagnosed, and nursery can't 'diagnose' - only point out where they have noticed difficulties beyond what is typical for children that age.

@SallyWD

I'm really confused by all these comments. It sounds like anyone and everyone can be autistic. How on earth do you know?

Yeah and when people are saying that high IQ is a “red flag” maybe my confusion is understandable.

I’ve now read the DCM-V diagnostic criteria and there is absolutely no suggestion that my DS has any restrictive or repetitive behaviour. His play is creative and he doesn’t repeat games/ways of playing with toys, he has no sensory issues, eats everything, sleeps well, loves holidays and visiting family (no issues eg sleeping in new places and trying new things - he positively enjoys this). We don’t have a strict routine at home and he enjoys disrupting it (eg will try to get out of bath time if he thinks it will mean more time for stories). I don’t recognise any of those elements in him at all, and nursery haven’t said that they are concerned in that regard either.

They are worried about his communication with peers and I see there is a separate condition called Social Communication Disorder where the restrictive behaviour isn’t present. So if they were going to throw a potential condition out there at me I’m surprised they didn’t mention this.

Anyway this thread has been very helpful. Thanks for all the input.

I suspect this will be an unpopular suggestion but rather than trying to diagnose him yourself why not talk chat it through with a professional.

Contact a clinical psychologist - we were fortunate to have it covered under our health insurer. Get nursery to outline their specific concerns.

That way you've covered your bases and can sit back and relax.

Nursery haven't diagnosed anything and I'm sure understand that's not their job. But it would be remiss of them not to have a conversation with you if they were concerned. They will be in contact with his new school however so if you want to shut it down that's your way to do it.

They probably have little or no experience of social communication disorder because nobody talks about it and if they did, they’d ask if you’re quite sure it’s not autism. . The suggestion that the majority of people at our top university have a neurological disorder is just silly. I think it always helps to think if things practically. What would you do differently if a toddler was autistic. The advice is fairly basic good parenting rather than anything more.

There is a really good author, her name is Caroline Maguire. I’ve come across her in a separate area. She is a therapist focused on kids social skills
She’s written a book called ‘why will no-one play with me’ which aimed to practically help kids who struggled with playing and social skills.
I remember listening to her podcast and her saying with there are some excellent you tube videos to help young kids focused on social skills . She recommends parent watch with their kids and discuss the feelings, friendship skills watching characters joining in, young kids emotions etc
I even vaguely remember they could be clips from films that’s she’s highlighted as helpful

I think a lot of these resources are on her website and it also has ideas for role playing to help kids practise these skills.

The thing is, if a child working at a different level to their peers at this early stage, communication may be difficult, simply because interests and concentration skills are very different. And that can be at the root of some of these issues.

One suggestion is to find a nursery which does a lot of outdoor stuff, where the gap may not be quite so important (this was a lifeline for us).

OP my friends' daughter has SCD, I don't think it should be dismissed as just a communication disorder, she went through her entire school life without friends, she was very lonely and unhappy and hated school. She developed anxiety - GAD and other issues such as self harming, meltdowns and a loss of control esp when she was tired. They didn't diagnose until she was mid teens, which by then was far too late. She has no confidence and spends her life with horses.

I would be getting help immediately for this, poor thing. It will really hinder his development both educationally and socially without intervention.

Or it could just be extreme shyness like my son has? As I said previously he actually didn't talk to any children for the first few years at school. Was diagnosed with selective mutism and is only now, in year 4, confident enough to make friends and play with other children. It's been a painfully slow process but wonderful to now see him playing, laughing and chatting with others.

Thanks. I don’t think he has SCD by the way (obviously not a professional) because his interactions in all circumstances other than with peers at nursery are good. But I do think he needs help relating to his peers in this group environment and nursery is already helping with this (small group sessions with same children, playing games and modelling interactions). So my own view is that I’d like to see how that works out over the next couple of months. He has made so much progress since he started there and is changing daily. If I and they are still concerned and the strategies they are employing aren’t working then I think at that stage it would be worth exploring further assessment.

@Ohnonevermind thank you for the recommendation - I will look into this.

@SallyWD

Or it could just be extreme shyness like my son has? As I said previously he actually didn't talk to any children for the first few years at school. Was diagnosed with selective mutism and is only now, in year 4, confident enough to make friends and play with other children. It's been a painfully slow process but wonderful to now see him playing, laughing and chatting with others.

I think this is what it is. But as you’ll see have had what feels like hundreds of people telling me I’m deluded and in fact probably autistic myself.

The suggestion that the majority of people at our top university have a neurological disorder is just silly.

As someone who would be included in this, and who has a similar child, I am not so sure. I think I would argue that 'giftedness' (or whatever you want to call it) is a neurodivergence in itself.

And all neurodivergences - ASD, dyspraxia, ADHD, dyscalulia and so on - aren't discreet, separate things, it's more like a cloud of difference, with a label which tells you where you sit on the cloud. They often occur together and giftedness is just another part of that.

To the extent that I think there are lots of bright people who are not ND, but it's very rare to be highly gifted and not have one of the other labels as well. I speak as someone who got an ADHD diagnosis in adulthood when my child got theirs.

Well it looks like you have come to a good decision. Encouraging friendships outside of nursery is also important for confidence and a sense of security.

He is only little, you have plenty of time. All the best

I don’t think you are more likely to have neurological disorders if you have a high IQ and I can’t imagine why anyone would think it is a divergence in itself. When I talk about being nd or neurotypical I’m not talking about intelligence, I would describe that as learning disabled, or conversely intellectually gifted. The whole idea of autism was that it is possible to be severely autistic and still have normal plus IQ (eg HFA)

I would also advise getting him assessed by specialists OP.

The criteria listed online can sometimes mislead in the sense that autistic people don't always fit a 'classic' dianostic profile.
My DS didn't have repetitive play, he's very creative.
He dislikes routines, is an adventurous eater and likes new places. He has lots of empathy, loves cuddles, has no issues with eye contact. But he does have a diagnosis of autism and it is very obvious now that he is older.

A psychologist told us that with some children she knows straight away, it's obvious to her, but that with many others even the professionals have to dig a lot deeper to be sure. You can't diagnose by reading a list off the internet.

I would check to be sure, because if he does need supports, now is the time to put them in place. The consequence of doing nothing now is much worse than the consequence of acting now and being wrong. So I'd act.