Bright child has no friends at preschool

[Tetherless]

My son started at preschool in September, having turned 3 last May (so is still 3). He’d never been to childcare before and we’d had a very isolated existence during covid as all family live abroad and we had to shield for the first lockdown. He struggled a lot settling in initially - wouldn’t sit with other children at meals, cried at drop off etc - but by the end of the first term he was joining in with everything, got on really well with the staff and seemed to me to have made huge progress.

He didn’t play with other kids at all at first but now does to a limited degree (apparently mainly when he can lead the activity). He much prefers talking to the adults. The staff have said that they are concerned with his social communication because he doesn’t have friends yet and have mentioned ASD as something they are thinking about.

DS is and always has been incredibly advanced - he met all milestones early, particularly those relating to communication (babbled with consonants at 4 months, pointing and first words at 8 months, sentences at 13 months). His maths is similarly advanced and he is extremely musical. He can read pretty well (on year 1 books atm). He is incredibly sensitive, imaginative, has a fantastic memory and sense of humour and is creative with a very wide range of interests. Motor skills wise he walked early, could ride a bike before he was 3, draws really well and starting to write. He has no sensory issues, eats and sleeps well and I have never considered him to have any kind of rigidness in terms of approach to routines. He’s generally pretty flexible but will sometimes kick off if he doesn’t get what he wants (which I thought was typical of his age). He is a bit of a stickler for the rules when playing games and that’s one of the things that nursery has cited (in addition to his preference for talking to adults) as “evidence” that he may be on the spectrum.

It has never crossed my mind that he is anything other than a bright but neurotypical child. Quite how bright I’m not sure. I feel that his issues making friends and preferring adults stem from a combination of natural shyness (DH and I both shy, academically high achieving kids), lack of practice due to covid and being used to being with adults, and difficulty engaging with peers whose language and interests are very different from his.

I feel that nursery has totally got it wrong but am conscious of course that they have a lot of experience (though possibly not with a child with this particular combination of circumstances). I feel slightly trapped in a parallel universe where they are seeing a completely different child from the one we see at home. They don’t seem to see his intelligence as a factor in his interactions with peers and seem keen to label him which seems crazy to me.

Should I be concerned? Is there anything I should be saying/doing with them or with him? Do I need to help him more with friendships or will it come with time? I feel slightly at a loss.

@5zeds

There’s no need for code though if you just say we’re concerned he is struggling more than we’d expect to form relationships with peers.

That's more or less exactly what I mean by code though.

With the knowledge I have now I'd know this might indicate autism and I'd seek help from the appropriate professionals. I'd investigate.

Back then, if someone had said this I'd have thought he might be a bit shy and I wouldn't have been as proactive in seeking a referral. Sounds foolish now I know, but autism was not on my radar at all. I was just totally inexperienced.

Years are wasted like this and it's the children that lose out. I really wish someone had told me. (The closest they came was to say he didn't remember other children's names very well )

@5zeds

There’s no need for code though if you just say we’re concerned he is struggling more than we’d expect to form relationships with peers.

And then what? Hope parents can figure it out for themselves what the hidden meaning is there? Why? Why waste so much time dancing round it.

Social communication is extremely poorly understood by joe public (I know, I specialise in it). It's not like saying 'we think they have a problem with eyesight' and the parents know to take them to the optician. There is no quick route to review 'social communication issues' so it's not helpful unless you can point people in the right direction.

[quote Tetherless]I wonder if I’d asked this question on a different board id have got a different response;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/4476758-3-5-year-old-doesn-t-have-any-friends[/quote]
It was on active - I never go in G&T.

Op, have you heard about twice exceptional?
Sometimes you can be both gifted and have some problems.

That's more or less exactly what I mean by code though.
With the knowledge I have now I'd know this might indicate autism and I'd seek help from the appropriate professionals. I'd investigate.
Back then, if someone had said this I'd have thought he might be a bit shy and I wouldn't have been as proactive in seeking a referral.

My point really is that no one should be “indicating autism”. What they should be doing is putting in place some extra support and suggesting that it might warrant further investigation if he still isn’t progressing with that support.

Hi OP,

My daughter is autistic (she’s 5 now, diagnosed at 4). I was concerned from about 2.5. But it was fairly obvious to me - she had lots of echolalia; cried if we went a different route, got upset by loud noises, lined up her toys (albeit in a small world drama story she would be telling!), played in a repetitive rigid was etc

My other daughter has just turned 3 and can read her sister’s reading books (blue band so end of reception/ year 1 standard). She’s incredibly intelligent not just the reading she’s just got an amazingly quick mind. But she hugely struggles with emotional regulation (then again she’s 3…)

She loves to play with her older sister and she does interact with her peers and plays nicely with them. However she also seeks out adults at preschool - they think because she loves imaginative play and role play and lots of the kids at preschool are too young for that.

Anyway…I’m not ruling out ASD for my youngest. I’d be surprised as I can’t see the obvious traits like I could with my oldest.

But I’ve learned a huge amount about autism and just how diverse the spectrum is.

So I think I’m saying don’t discount it. There’s no way my youngest would even get a referral atm - the signs aren’t there but I wonder if they’ll appear as she gets older.

Hope that in some way this helps you!

[quote Tetherless]I wonder if I’d asked this question on a different board id have got a different response;

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/4476758-3-5-year-old-doesn-t-have-any-friends[/quote]
Amazing how different the replies are.

I think the problem around autism is that it's usually framed as something negative. When somebody first suggested that my dd may be autistic I was quite offended (she still currently has no diagnosis) I've since come to realise that all of the most brilliant, funny, clever, creative, original and genuine people that I know are HF autistic / Aspergers - whatever you wish to call it. I honestly don't see it in a negative way anymore. I can think of so many comedians, writers etc who are clearly autistic and brilliant. Matt Haig was recently diagnosed; many others don't talk about it because they probably don't want to be stigmatised - but they quite obviously are.

I have only known 4 people in real life who have been to Oxbridge and I am pretty sure that they are all autistic although only one has a diagnosis, as far as I'm aware.

It's strange but since I've become more aware and knowledgeable about autism, I can see it everywhere. I can see things more clearly. So many things make more sense to me in terms of my own family and friends. Yet it's taken me until 50 odd years of age to get to this point. It's been a long journey. And I don't think I would ever have been aware if I hadn't had neurodiverse children and hadn't worked in schools and got to observe so many children in that setting. It took me a long time to get my son's diagnosis because everything he did seemed quite normal to me - because I too am not neurotypical.

[quote 5zeds]@Ozanj that couldn’t be further from the truth, but if I’ve lead you to believe I don’t think early years professionals are valuable and skilled then I apologise. I just don’t think you are consultant peadiatricians. Actually observation from school (or another non home setting) are extremely important in the diagnostic process.[/quote]
Of course not but we are often given reams of information from consultant pediatricians about things to watch out for plus our own experience. In my experience of 3 yos a history of hyperlexia, problems making friends, and being g&t are red flags that will warrant a frank conversation to recommend a pediatric referral. ASD will be mentioned if that’s what we suspect. But you need to understand that at 3 a lot of serious conditions will cause ASD like symptoms - for example 2-4 yos with rickets / softer bones will often present with super intelligence and clumsiness because kids and parents focus their time on academics as the child hates any exercise and so struggle to develop great hand eye coordination. This type of logic leap doesn’t require a consultant pediatrician, it just requires someone like me who has spent decades travelling the world and experiencing kids.

Reading early and being out of step with other three year olds is also a “red flag” for having a high IQ. That’s fairly likely since the parents are demonstrably in the top percentiles for intelligence. Asd is not so directly linked to high iq as is being suggested. In fact the majority of people who are autistic don’t have high IQs. That’s why we now (post dsm V) separate learning disability, and language disorder from the diagnosis.

I do find this insistence that nursery teachers are qualified to assess and point towards a likely outcome odd. In my experience each professional is extremely careful not to overstep their area of expertise.

My son was a chatty, social, intelligent child with no obvious signs of ASD/neurodivergence at that age. Nursery did not raise any concerns. By year 1 I could see he was struggling at school and his mental health was rapidly declining. He was diagnosed ADHD but didn't score high enough for ASD (school and me strongly suspect he is though!).
My second had difficulties joining in some large group activities at nursery but that was it- 1 area of concern, ASD not mentioned. He was diagnosed autistic at 6. He scored high in his ADOS assessment -so a very clear diagnosis.
I told the nursery staff and they were quite surprised! They missed both.
I think it would have been helpful if we could have picked it up earlier (signs were there but I didn't recognise them). Since learning about ADHD and ASD I can very clearly see it runs in the family and I am neurodivergent. I would never have said that 10 years ago! For what it's worth my entire family insisted both boys were 'normal' and there was nothing different. 1) they don't understand ASD/ADHD 2) it is normal for my family!
I know of 2 cases where nursery raised ASD concerns with parents and the child was not then diagnosed, in both cases the children have gone on to have communication and interaction difficulties. Whether or not they are autistic I don't know but the nursery spotted something and were right to raise it.
If you really don't see it at all I would wait another year or so. Neurodivergence will show itself eventually as demands on the child increase.

There is a link between autism and genius. Researchers even suggest a genetic link because autistic parents are the most likely to have kids with both conditions.

Amazing how different the replies are.

The replies are different because on the other thread nursery staff had no concerns about the child's social interaction. The entire point of this thread is that the nursery staff do have concerns.

@Ozanj

There is a link between autism and genius. Researchers even suggest a genetic link because autistic parents are the most likely to have kids with both conditions.

I'd be interested in seeing a source for that as that wasn't my understanding. I thought it was fairly widely accepted that that is an outdated stereotype.

@TheYearOfSmallThings

Amazing how different the replies are.

The replies are different because on the other thread nursery staff had no concerns about the child's social interaction. The entire point of this thread is that the nursery staff do have concerns.

It doesn't matter. The OP will learn all the truths in time. We all do in the end. The good thing is, this stuff will stay in the back of the head. It'll be picked over again at some point. Some things you have to learn on your own.

That’s interesting @Ozanj can you link to where you read that. My understanding was that autism bridged all levels of intelligence but that the population was weighted quite heavily towards those with lower IQs because it can be part of and exacerbated by other difficulties/disabilities that also include learning disability.

Ultimately, of course nursery staff are not qualified to diagnose. However, well trained nursery staff absolutely should have a decent knowledge of typical child development, and should be able to identify indicators (and they're not fucking red flags, autism isn't a hazard and doesn't need a warning) that might affect a child's developmental trajectory, and there is absolutely no harm in following up with a health visitor or early years SEN team or whatever local provision is available for this.

It's really not a big deal.

@5zeds

I do find this insistence that nursery teachers are qualified to assess and point towards a likely outcome odd. In my experience each professional is extremely careful not to overstep their area of expertise.

I'd say it's more recognise signs and refer. That is part of their job.

@5zeds

I do find this insistence that nursery teachers are qualified to assess and point towards a likely outcome odd. In my experience each professional is extremely careful not to overstep their area of expertise.

I don't see anyone saying they are 'qualified to assess'. I see a lot of people saying nursery teachers who work with hundreds of children at the same age over their career have a good grasp and wealth of knowledge of when things are out of step with the rest of their peer group.

The discussion point seems to be whether they should beat around the bush and hope parents can figure out the hidden possible outcomes to those observations or whether they should say what they see and what it could indicate to narrow the field - personally I see zero point in being vague and non specific. Helps no one in the long run.

I have children with autism and children without. They are all really bright. The thing that marked the difference was their ability to play and relate to their peers. My my son who was really bright could read at three, do sums, count in twos fives and tens still loved being with his peers and related to them and all the stuff he could do didn't matter when with his friends because he'd be playing with them. My two with autism would be more likely to be reading instructions on how to play a game rather than taking any pleasure in the game or their peers. My grandson is at preschool and a lockdown baby (3 in June) he's bright too but he had no bother making friends even though he'd been surrounded by adults and never been near a child before pre school (only child and only child in extended family)
As a parent to children with autism I'd say nursery have raised valid concerns. You should see your GP and ask for a referral to a developmental paediatrician.

@5zeds

I do find this insistence that nursery teachers are qualified to assess and point towards a likely outcome odd. In my experience each professional is extremely careful not to overstep their area of expertise.

Too careful. An experienced teacher is very well placed to observe differences between children and point parents in the right direction. Very often they don't, for fear of overstepping. This is a problem. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one 5zeds

What @Anomalocaris said at 22:15:09 and what @autienotnaughty said in the next post.
5zeds Nobody has said Nursery staff are 'qualified to assess'. What people are saying is it is absolutely the role of Early Years Practitioners to raise the possibility of some neuro divergence with parent of dc that fall outside the usual range of typically development. When you work with 2 - 4 year olds every day of the week, and have done for some years, you do understand when it would be wise to start thinking about further assessments.

I feel the nursery were wrong to mention ASD, even if that is their concern, as that can be very difficult for a parent to hear if they didn't suspect it themselves

Why? What is wrong with being autistic?

@bluebird3

Based on your description of your son (who sounds like a fab little boy) there could be some red flags for ASD or possibly not. However the best diagnosticians of children with autism are other children. Kids can sniff out someone who is a bit 'different' a mile away and if he's not making friends or finding anyone to get on with at nursery, that's a pretty big red flag. And the fact he can do better in 1:1 situations supports this as kids who are ND often do better 1:1 than in a group setting.

Also wrong. Many kids with ASD mask it very effectively at school/ nursery etc and only show it all at home. Most other kids will be totally oblivious, especially at a young age. Most of the adults don't even pick up on it when they are masking!!