Challenges of having a G&T child.

[Iwasjustabouttosaythat]

How has it been for you? DS is only 4 but already I’m feeling like I have to be apologetic all the time or play down his abilities. Some other parents are genuinely curious but most either assume I’m exaggerating or assume I’ve been crazily hot-housing him. I’ve found this with kindergarten teachers too. Since I moved him to Montessori it’s been fantastic, but I’m worried about him starting primary school. I don’t want to go back to being looked at like I’m the crazy mum who won’t “just let him be a child”. It’s as though I wouldn’t love for him to run around and go down the slide again and again and again instead of trying to read books to uninterested kids at the park. Actually no, I love him just how he is and wouldn’t change him for the world, but I’m not solely responsible for those traits. How do other people deal with it?

Of course a lot of G&T kids need help socially but you can bet the parents of these kids are well on top of that.

I'm glad you can bet this. What makes you so sure? Over how many years have you made this assessment?

I've met quite a few G&T kids over many years and not all of their parents are on top of this. Quite often the parents just use G&T as an excuse and don't consider social skills necessary for these kids and/or don't want to put in the work or give up as it's very very difficult.

Many of these kids are absolutely brilliant but will struggle incredibly to get any sort of job they aspire to and would excel at as there is no way they would make it past an interview.

That’s true. I just assumed that if a parent is well informed enough to know completely about being G&T they’re also informed about the needs of G&T kids. I guess I’m wrong about some parents. I think saying “any sort of job they aspire to” is a bit unfair though. A solo concert pianist doesn’t need to be especially sociable.

And without giving too much away I can say I have a background in science and academia and this is an absolute haven for clever introverts. Smarts are hugely preferred to social skills in that area.

A pianist that doesn't have superb social skills will not negotiate many bookings!

And without giving too much away I can say I have a background in science and academia and this is an absolute haven for clever introverts. Smarts are hugely preferred to social skills in that area.

Even the most brilliant thinker will not get beyond the middle ranks of academia without good social skills. The ability to communicate and collaborate effectively with colleagues is key.

Extroversion/Introversion is irrelevant. Social skills are not.

Thoth, I think that’s what agents are for.

Also I think there’s a middle ground between perfect social skills and an ability to cope socially. It’s not an either/or thing. You don’t have to be the life of the party to thrive in certain areas is all I’m saying.

Also I’m not entering into an argument about it. Of course social skills are important as we’ve all said about a thousand times.

You are right about academia being a haven.

I have a young relative, also G&T. They became an actuary. Brilliant money. Couldn't cope with employment in industry due to the social skills aspect. Actuary's are not exactly known for their glowing personalities and great teamwork, in fact in my experience not much at all is expected of them in this regard as most are just accepted as 'odd' by colleagues and that's fine, they are just left to get on with it. So even with these limited expectations he still couldn't cope.

Got a job in academia. Like a hand in a glove, perfect fit. They are not at all unhappy with their new job. They are however pretty unhappy with the fact that they earn less than a third of what they were earning in industry and have little prospect of this ever increasing that much over the years. Such a shame, it was not ability that tripped him up but social skills.

This thread has sparked my interest on how G&T is diagnosed in different countries.

From the above it seems in Britain that it is a label that schools apply to kids. Is that correct or have I missed something?

Here, it is typical for kids to be diagnosed by dev paeds. To be honest I'm not sure who has the 'authority' to diagnose though, I've never looked into it but everyone I know who has a child with that label went through a dev paed assessment,so assessed by clinical psych, educational psych and dev paed who is the one who ends up deciding whether they are or not.

A lot of our schools have G&T classes/streams but inclusion in these is determined merely on school results, nothing to do with whether a kid is actually G&T. In fact, I'm told (not sure whether it is true or not) that a lot of G&T don't perform to ability due to many confounding factors so it's quite possible that by upper primary and high school when G&T classes come into effect that some kids would not even be in them.

Hopping, seems to be the same situation you describe here (not UK). That’s part of why I’m interested in talking about challenges. From what I’ve heard streaming can be stressful for them too, so it’s either a school that does that or one that just thinks your kid is odd.

From the above it seems in Britain that it is a label that schools apply to kids. Is that correct or have I missed something?

Yes, many years ago, it was identified that many schools were doing a bad job stretching their most able students, so identifying the most able students in the class was encouraged, and through oftsed encouraging schools can change behaviour a lot.

This led to lots of kids being labelled as G&T during this time, this was the sort of advice that meant every primary class had G&T kids in it: www.education.gov.uk/publications/eorderingdownload/getting%20startedwr.pdf

That sort of programme has since been dropped, and more flexible and reasonable approaches to challenging able students is now the central advice, however many schools still have the same programmes, but yes often labels come from schools, I'd say now though it's more likely to be from a bad school, than a good one, simply because the language is confusing for many.

You do also of course also have lots of parents getting ed-psych reports, and others who are in school environments where they do CAT tests etc. That is not the normal school experience though.

Ah, that’s very interesting. Sorry everyone, I should have started with the above definition.

OR you can find a school that fits everyone. It does not have to be an either/or situation as you describe.

My G&T kids school has a mix of kids with intellectual disabilities, below average kids, average kids, above average kids and G&T kids. They cater to each individual and the kids are in mixed classes as much as possible. Obviously once they reach upper high school 'streaming' occurs naturally, for example the intellectually disabled kids don't have to do all of the mandatory core subjects, they do special life skills classes. The average kids don't tend to choose to specialise in chemistry, physics, advanced english, advanced maths etc. It's obviously more work for the teacher to have a class that contains kids of mixed abilities and to cater for each individual at their level but it's invaluable for the kids to have to learn how to interact with a wide range of people who have a different range of abilities. That in itself is just as important as the work they are given.

This is true, Hopping, and I hope after my long search I have found one. This is why it would have been so good to be able to talk to local parents about this. Either way I’ve found one which will expose him to a lot of different areas of interest. They’re bilingual (which we’re not), super serious about their drama and art, lots of sports and music to choose from, and about a billion lunchtime clubs (one in an area of interest to him that no other children we know have an interest in, so a great opportunity to meet like-minded children). They do really well with the core subjects too. Endless excursions and incursions. I’m hoping with the many other areas to work on the areas he excels in won’t be such a big deal. I definitely saw some schools that would have been an awful fit for him.

Oh an composite classes too, so he will be with older children which he prefers at the moment.

Should add, we had to go private to get this.

The public system was fine for primary and accommodated all kids quite well but high school was a completely different matter. They lumped all disabled kids into units together (one unit per region), had a selective school in each region (not necessarily for G&T kids but kids who had been heavily tutored and hot housed since before kindergarten with the sole purpose of getting into these schools) and each local high school had a G&T stream, again nothing to do with G&T kids but just kids who performed academically well/above others and didn't take any of the intrinsic aspects of G&T into account. As for 2e, forget it with the public high schools we have.

It took private for us to find a good fit. Wish it was not the case as we would prefer to go public and have a higher bank balance but it is what it is. A lot of the parents at our school are doing it really tough financially in order to send the kids there, nothing to do with wanting a private education and everything to do with it being a good fit out of a limited range of options.

That sounds so hard. I’m glad you did find a good school though. We’re lucky enough to not have to go private for secondary but it’s the kind of school people pay a lot to move into the zone for.

not necessarily for G&T kids but kids who had been heavily tutored and hot housed since before kindergarten with the sole purpose of getting into these schools

That’s another thing I want to avoid. We do have a primary school with lots of G&T kids nearby but until the media found out very recently they were prioritising enrolments with an incredibly hefty “enrolment” fee. It’s not a private school...

I looked at another where they showed us a chart at the open day showing how many “advanced” children were enrolled there. It was “tiger” parent central. I just want DS to love learning, not to feel pressure to perform even from primary school.

I think a school that works with each child individually/according to their needs is what you are looking for, rather than a school that is 'great for high achievers'.

When looking around schools, if you mention 'gifted' or 'highly able' or some such, chances are you won't get any straight answers and instead a 'well we'll form our own judgement' attitude. Fair enough, teachers should form their own judgement, once the child has started; but that does not help the parent in deciding if it is the right school for the child!

I think a strategy to use instead can be to ask questions with the aim to determine how good the school is at dealing with each child's individual needs, rather than your child's particular needs (that may be related to giftedness). So rather than asking about what they do for the most able, ask questions about what they do for the least able. As this is less open to being judged for, you can really push for answers without being seen as boasting/tiger mum/difficult parent. So after the the first 'we run intervention groups as soon as we notice the child is lagging behind predicted progress' (or some such) you can ask follow up questions such as -who runs those interventions? A teacher specialised in the particular children's needs or a TA with no training? -are they individualised to the particular children's needs or just some 'extra maths for those who are struggling'? -do they take EdPsych reports/advice on how best to support the child into account? -What if a child is struggling so much that they cannot access year group work, do they still have to sit through regular classes and then get 'extra' at their level, or do they get taught at their level all the time? -do they ever get external help/advice if they feel current staff expertise does not cover this child's needs? -how is the child supported not to think they are overly 'different' from the rest of the class? -how is the child supported in gaining confidence and not starting to believe that they are 'too stupid'?

I haven't tried this but I kind of think that you are more likely to get away with asking this kind of questions, and to get useful answers, than if you ask the same/equivalent questions about a 'gifted' child. And the answers will tell you if the school tries to address individual children's needs rather than just differentiating top-middle-bottom or some such. And can therefore give you a good indication if it is likely to be good for outliers on either end of the spectrum.

Uk used to be top 10% in a school but not all of those will be gifted in the international sense and it will obviously vary by cohort.
I definitely think schools need to look harder at stage not age learning tbh.

More excellent advice from Brilliotic. I wish I’d started this thread before I did the grand tour but even with all the above in mind I think we’re making the right decision. It seems so ridiculous to be so worried about primary school but a good experience will set him up so well for secondary school.

You’re right about the questions. At the first school I asked how they handled advanced students and got the eye, so from then I asked how they help students at both ends. I can see why teachers think I’m just going to be another pushy parent but it is a shame they often have their defences up before anything can be discussed.

Another good thing about the school is that they test all the kids straight up to find their individual levels. That’s a good place to start for him.

I definitely think schools need to look harder at stage not age learning tbh.

There’s been a lot of talk about this where I am lately and I agree. It’s always been the setup at Montessori and those children seem to thrive. It costs a lot too though which I suppose is half the problem.

In my experience, choosing a school is tricky but I have found that larger primary schools - 3 form entries - tend to a larger group of high achievers therefore they may get more support. Our DS is in a small, one entry form (we chose it because it's a good school, has really good pastoral care, sense of community, children are nurtured and well looked after) has not been the best at dealing with DS as he was the only G&T pupil in his year group. This singles him out which we didn't want - in larger schools, they can support the more able pupils with small group work, extra challenges, etc.

The school we chose was brilliant though at things like music, art, drama, and social support/help with social skills and communications.

When visiting a school I would always encourage parents to ask how the school deals with children with SEN and learning difficulties as well as children who are more able. With all the cuts in state schools at present we see less and less good TAs and that can affect both groups at the lower and higher attainment groups.

You may well do better in mid to high income areas too. Our school is in a poor area with generally low starting points in reception and nursery.

Tomorrowwillbeachicken, you may think that but, and it's a big but, schools in poorer areas (where I live, in East London) have significantly larger budgets and have more teaching staff, more support staff, more support generally in terms of access to technology, modern teaching tools, access to online support for children, etc.