I am a level-headed science trained adult who has done her research, so why am I still wary of the mmr vaccine?

[bunnyhunny]

Before I start, can I just say that I really dont want to offend anyone whose children have been vaccine damaged, as I realise it must be absolutely devastating, and this is not my aim in posting this.

I have a science background, so I have read the scientific papers about mmr and autism. Overwhelmingly, there is NO evidence of a causal link between mmr and autism. Any evidence appears to be anecdotal. Reading the papers, I think about 30+ papers say there is no link, while very few suggest caution.

So why do I still want to refuse the vaccine? There is no evidence that single vaccines are any better, and thimerasol has apparently been removed from the vaccines anyway.
And ds has eczema and food allergies, but I have also researched this and there is no concern about either of these and the vaccine.

So why am I still resisting it in my head?

PLEASE, someone help me make a decision!!!!

Read the papers again. None have tested Wakefield's hypothesis that there is a subgroup of the autistic population who have regressed following MMR. He won't give a figure for the subgroup- others say about 8%. The papers tell you that the MMR is safe for the vast majority of children- Wakefield himself would agree with you.

Thimerosal was never in MMR.

In direct answer to your question, I'd say because the fear and responsibility loaded on potentially actively causing harm through vaccine damage is a far stronger fear than that of harm passively 'just happening' through infection. Humans aren't designed to think in terms of statistics and tiny potential risks, no matter how well trained we might be. My feeling is that a lot of the time this comes down to the feeling that 'it will be my fault if I agree and my child is damaged, and not my fault if I do nothing'.

I had ds1's done seperately, and i am having ds2's done seperately too. I had actually booked an appointment for ds1 to have it done as one single jab because I had heard it was actually quite safe, then the same day I read an article in the paper about a couple of children that had died from having the single jab. Now, being a complete worrier I cancelled the appointment.
ds1 is now due his booster jabs, it's expensive but I believe it is the right decision for me. I know of a few people who have had the single jab and their children were absolutely fine too.
Just go with what you think is right.

Because you are a caring parent,and at the back of your mind something is sayig "I would never forgive myself if something did go wrong" Even though you know the chances are low.
All of my 6 have had all of their vaccines.Oldest is 20yrs and youngest is 2yrs,so they have changed over the years,but all my dc are fine.
I know somebody who has a autistic dd and still let her younger ds have the MMR,because like you said there is NO evidence of a link.

how do you go about getting the single jabs, and how much are they?

I went with these people, and i'm going again with ds2. You get a discount for siblings

www.wellcare.co.uk

Because the idea of doing active harm to your child (if MMR could ever hurt anybody) is more scarey than the idea of hypothetical maybe harm (if your child got one of those 3 diseases and if they were badly affected).
It has to do with how different types of risks are perceived... active harm is harder to accept than passive harm (reference huge body of work on risk perception by Paul Slovic, etc.) If MMR hurt your child, you'd blame yourself. If measles brain-damaged your child, you might feel more like it's an act of God/nature (you probably won't make them go out and catch measles).

Thing to remember is every decision involves risks. You have to decide how you want to make the decision: on the basis of the active action vs. passive action allowing harm, or on the basis of pure logic (relative risk statistics) or other factors (as others have mentioned). How do you want to make these decisions, and which type of risk feels most tolerable to you presonally?

llijkk - that is exactly true. If we allow it and he is affected (or if asd appears coincidentally at the same time) I would never forgive myself. But I do agree with all the research that shows it is safe (even if for the vast majority).
maybe I need to research more about susceptible groups...
lazarou (papa?) - that is more expensive than I thought. I thought perhaps £200 and we would do it, but I don't think we can afford that

Good post Greenglassgoblin

There are other clinics around that do it. We live near bath anyway so it's the nearest place for us.
Can anyone help you out with the cost? Family?

You are right tmmj, it's a scary decision to have to make. I lost so much sleep over the bloody mmr, i was nearly in tears when i read the article in the paper. My friend was the same.

I'd ask to see the consultant mmj. AFAIK you can no longer get single tetanus/diptheria etc now (I've been trying to find some for ds2 and ds3). I don't mean you can't get it without paying- I mean AFAIK it just doesn't exist. I think the smallest bundle you can get is either DTaP or DTaP-Hib. Really I think you need to talk to a consultant.

Even scientists have emotions, bunny.

bloody hell mmj- as someone who knows plenty of vaccine damaged kids..... it's your NHS- you are absolutely well within your rights to ask for a re-referral to an immunologist. I wouldn't hesitate- honestly. Why on earth would you be comfortable if you've seen one bad reaction?

I am a level-headed science trained adult who has done her research, and I was a bundle of nerves taking ds for his MMR. I think it's the irrational human side coming out!

Didn't dare admit it to dh though, who is also a scientist and has perhaps less of an irrational human side...

As for the original OP I have a Science PhD. The research you need to be done - if you want to know that MMR never triggers autism- hasn't been done. There's nothing irrational about it.

i think most parents have a moment of doubt before giving the mmr tbh. i know i did. even though you know the evidence has been widely discredited,you can't automatically forget all the conjecture and speculation surrounding something like this.

oh and don't want to hijack but LiegeandLief - great name - and a great band, i must say!

MMR nerves seem to resemble the anxieties that prevent people from letting their kids play outside independently. We know the benefits sufficiently outweigh the risks, and we know that there are significant costs associated with refusal. But we attach greater weight to risks that we 'choose' to incur for our children than to risks that are just 'out there'.

this is a fascinating thread

re the OP;

becasue of shit, almost criminal, journalism is the answer!

It's a normal mother reaction. I worry everytime my 7 year old gets on his bicycle now that he has learned how to ride it without training wheels. Chances are that he is spacey enough that he will end up breaking a limb on it. However, I also know that he needs to be able to do things that have risks and it would be foolish for me not to let him ride a bicycle. I just make sure that he does it under my supervision.
Getting back to vaccinations....I agree with everything yurt1 has said. If there is no history of autism in your family, then then you are probably better off just getting the mmr. There is absolutely no evidence that the individual jabs are any "safer." However, if there is a history of autism in your family, then maybe you might want to weigh up all the risks, including the potential risks of your child getting measles, mumps or rubella. Those risks are higher in certain parts of the uk because of the low uptake on the mmr.
As a good mother you can only do your best to protect your children and I suspect that you will never feel completely confident in your decisions. My mother is a reitred prof of biochem in her 70's and still questions decisions about health (and every other thing on the planet) that she made/makes for me and my brother. (and now she has added worrying about my children to the mix).

'cos I can

I don't let many people kick me twig

Brian Deers 'journalism' borders on the criminal.