I am a level-headed science trained adult who has done her research, so why am I still wary of the mmr vaccine?

[bunnyhunny]

Before I start, can I just say that I really dont want to offend anyone whose children have been vaccine damaged, as I realise it must be absolutely devastating, and this is not my aim in posting this.

I have a science background, so I have read the scientific papers about mmr and autism. Overwhelmingly, there is NO evidence of a causal link between mmr and autism. Any evidence appears to be anecdotal. Reading the papers, I think about 30+ papers say there is no link, while very few suggest caution.

So why do I still want to refuse the vaccine? There is no evidence that single vaccines are any better, and thimerasol has apparently been removed from the vaccines anyway.
And ds has eczema and food allergies, but I have also researched this and there is no concern about either of these and the vaccine.

So why am I still resisting it in my head?

PLEASE, someone help me make a decision!!!!

Great to read all your posts. I'm just about to get DTs (boys) MMRed, on Wednesday, and I'm having kittens about it. DD1 had singles when there was lots of press about MMR and not much research. I can't afford to get the boys done separately (it'll cost about £600 with boosters), though if I hadn't had twins I would have. As some have said, active action rather than passive. So much easier to do passive.

Just to add to sofia ames post- many of the areas with the lowest uptakes of the MMR also have some of the highest uptakes of single vaccines, which means your child is probably at a higher risk of mumps but perhaps not much else ....

Why is anecdotal evidence discounted?

That's the part I don't understand... So many people have said that their child was fine until immunisations, but was very much NOT after. Why does that not count as evidence?

I'm sure most people would agree that there are some children who do get injured by vaccines, but perhaps the scientific community does not know why certain children are and some are not.

If they ever found out "why"some children are damaged and some are not, no doubt there would have to be tests done - on innocent children all in the name of "proof". Would that ever happen? I hope not.

But in the meantime, why can't parental evidence of damage not count as proof?

The 'anecdotal evidence' I've come across is a child who was developing normally, was fine, Within hours of MMR had a massive seizure (first and only one ever)- ended up in ICU- his mum was told he might die. He didn't but now 8 or so years later can't speak, isn't toilet trained, the usual severe autism day to day stuff. He's an utter sweetie as well, really sweet natured. In fact in his case it wasn't discounted as his paed said it probably was MMR that did him in. I know others in similar situations though who were told it was just a coincidence (pretty big one? worth investigating perhaps??)

Answer to OP question: Better safe than sorry. That is why.

I am due to get my ds mmr'd on Tue, i had great anxietys with dd1 over this as it was at the height of all the publicity 5 yrs ago so we went down the route of single vacs which at 100 a shot was not an affordable option plus a 3 hr round trip it was no fun but we did it and it took about a year to get fully mmr'd due to mumps delays and cancelations when dd was ill etc...., for my ds we have decided to go MMR as it was truly a hassle and i felt she was at risk with all the delays. Anyway he gets another also with his MMR - phenmeccocal i think it said it was at the same time. FFs, if there is or isnt a risk of the m m and the r being lumped together why are they chucking another in? I am verrry anxious about Tue. On my last appt i suggested to the nurse that i would have the phenmeccocy thing and wait a month before the MMR - she questioned me and made me feel like a paranoid neurotic idiot.

Sorry for the rant and the hijack....

nappyzone- if you want the penumonococcal done separately get it done separately - your child. When totally unvaccinated ds3 was in hospital with a seizure I did not get hassle from the consultants or nurses (one very junior doctor got a bit starey eyed about it but she couldn't answer my questions and I knew more and had read more than her anyway).

I questioned the consultant about penumonococcal disease because prior to the seizure ds3 had had an ear infection etc etc and I was scared as he hadn't been vaccinated and he just said it was highly unlikely and if it was they'd treat it and he'd be fine. (ok I know some of that gunghoness was to not panic me and it isn't always that simple). But really I got no hassle. Just tell them- he can have him MMR and I'll be back in a month for the rest. Your child. Look at the fuss people make about midwives giving formula to a child who wants to be breastfed- this is the same- your child- of you want to spread them out- do. They're done in one go in the interests of cost. There may be a minimum time you need to wait if you get them done separately but they can tell you that.

Our medical history made me wary about the MMR without all the press attention: my ds had infantile eczema and asthma/ds wasn't very well after the 2nd immunisation at 16 weeks/I have an autistic cousin / I am a child of the 70s when caution was advised over having the whooping cough vaccine if you had eczema/asthma (I didn't have the vaccine)...

I did some reading (not as extensive as many on here & tbh if I knew as much as them maybe I, on my own, still wouldn't have gone ahead) and most tellingly for me I looked at the stats & probabilities, which is what gave me my greatest reassurance really. Nevertheless I still made my 'scientific', calmly rational, pro-MMR hb take ds to the doctors, I just couldn't do it.

i know i am preparing my retort for the snotty nurse if she is there again and will have the phen and go back for the mmr in a month should he be well enough. My dd had guilliane barre syndrome at 2 and although is absolutly fine now they did say sometimes it could be caused by an auto immune response to a vac or it could have been following her usual chest infection - it all adds to my reasoning or lack of but like the original op educated and normally rational minded when it comes to my babies i am a fuzzy mess.

God yes. Have you read Richard Halvorsen's book (he's an NHS GP- ends up recommending most of the vaccinations book: the truth about vaccinations). He writes quite a bit about Guilliane Barre syndrome. Highly recommend his book.

no i have not read it - going to go google

It's el cheapo- bang up to date. I got my copy from Amazon.

I know someone who's daughter died of measles before the MMR vaccine was brought in. She was first in the queue for MMR with DD2.

any evidence appears to be anecdotal? that's wrong

i would argue, that you feel wary because of the absolute holy cow that vaccines have become with governmental organisations. there is no room for doubt. therefore doubt is all i do.

my child is unvaccinated.

he rides two wheeled on a bike down the road and has done since he was two.

atm i'm worried that he is scared of the doctor because he has never been in living memory, and of course he may be struck down by something awful tomorrow, but i believe (believe, not know) that vaccines compromise children's immunity.

and i don't think there is any harm at all in waiting. until they are over four for example. and i WILL be vilified for this.

this website and a random recommendation to read her stuff, well not random actually, i read it in 'what really works for kids' a great book.

I work with adults who have autism. None of them had the MMR jab
I have also read the study by Wakefield which caused all the scandal and press coverage. It does not stand up. There is a fabulous coincidence that the communication and interaction which should normally develop at around twelve to eighteen months are then noted to be lacking in a child leading to a possible diagnosis of autistic spectrum disorder...you probably know all this but i thought i'd post it anyway.

As my two sons have a fantastic array of allergies and ds1 had hideously bad reactions to all his infant jabs, we delayed having the MMR til he was four years old and thus bigger, stronger and defo not asd, and then he had the jab in the childrens day ward at the hospital. DS2 is now 4 and will be going the same route. This is my version of 'safe' because I want them to be immunised [vs the risk of mumps etc] but dont want to gamble with bad reactions and so on. Have tried to 'manage' the risk by watching out for m/m/r outbreak - if it had come anywhere near our way then I think they'd have been 'jabbed'asap

I'm with purpleduck on this one. It's a good example of the patronising words used to describe the arguments questioning MMR. Another good one is emotional, and another one, hinted at earlier, is irrational (but natural because we're just over-protective mummies.) There's lots of evidence of harm: clinical, sub-clinical, epidemiological and direct accounts. Proof is harder to come by because the studies aren't done. But most mothers don't lose their brains when they have children and a direct account from a mother, usually backed up by a partner, grandparents, the little red book noting milestones, videos of regression and eventually ASD diagnosis will convince me. Can't understand why other people are still sceptical.

"Most mothers"? that should say "all mothers"!

By the way the "fabulous coincidence" that autism appears at the same time MMR is given is just made up. It kinda matches the amazing coincidence that most cot deaths occur between 4 to 6 months when the infant jabs are given. It's like y'know jinx!

My dd has had all the usual baby vacs ie tet/dip etc and several vacs for foreign travel eg hep a, typhoid etc BUT I couldn't do the mmr. Rationale? She had a sensitivity to egg and our gp said she could have the mmr in hospital (no thanks). Also, dd's best friend had the mmr and got measles.

gigglewitch- autism cases -including severe ones- have increased rapidly over the last 10 or so years. It's why so much new provision is now being opened for adults - I was told this by the manager of some excellent new provision aimed at severely autistic adults- he said provision will need to increase further to keep up. Having said that of course MMR isn't responsible by itself for the rise - no-one- has suggested it is. Wakefiled himself says its safe for the majority.

Which bit of the Wakefiled et al paper didn't stand up? He described a new condition (autistic enterocolitis)- this condition has been accepted as existing- the mechanism by which it arises is under dispute - but not the condition itself. But in the paper they said they hadn't demonstrated a causal link (they hadn't) - really the paper stands up - Richard Horton the lancet editor (who is no fan of Wakefield) has said at the recent GMC hearing that the paper was an excellent piece of work and as a case series was/is the standard way to describe a new condition.

Regressive autism is very different from the 'oh I just didn't notice anyting was wrong'. Seizures and ending up in ICU are not easy to miss.

oh the red books interesting candypandy- and diaries. I found an old diary written when ds1 was little- and he did all this stuff I had totally forgotten about (I under- rather than over estimated his abilities when I had thought back). He had loads of words that I'd forgotten as well. I don't watch baby videos of him very often (too painful)- I last did it about 3 years ago- and it was the same- surprise at how much he had been doing.

yurt

x

Yurt I really feel for you. Bloody sodding sods. Sorry to swear but Hope bunnyhunny isn't doing the same in five years time. If that sounds glib it's not meant to.