I am a level-headed science trained adult who has done her research, so why am I still wary of the mmr vaccine?

[bunnyhunny]

Before I start, can I just say that I really dont want to offend anyone whose children have been vaccine damaged, as I realise it must be absolutely devastating, and this is not my aim in posting this.

I have a science background, so I have read the scientific papers about mmr and autism. Overwhelmingly, there is NO evidence of a causal link between mmr and autism. Any evidence appears to be anecdotal. Reading the papers, I think about 30+ papers say there is no link, while very few suggest caution.

So why do I still want to refuse the vaccine? There is no evidence that single vaccines are any better, and thimerasol has apparently been removed from the vaccines anyway.
And ds has eczema and food allergies, but I have also researched this and there is no concern about either of these and the vaccine.

So why am I still resisting it in my head?

PLEASE, someone help me make a decision!!!!

Not read all the posts but I think the reason you have a problem accepting the scientific evidence is probably because it's the first time you have had to make a conscious decision about the health of your child and know that there is a small risk to your child whether you vaccinate or not. Your naturally scientific, logical brain is conflicting with the primeval instinct of protection as a mother.

I always think that there's no smoke without fire to a degree but it's generally considered more dangerous not to immunise in the grand scheme of things.

My dd2 didn't have the 2nd MMR as I got cold feet.

only just found this thread again - what a lot has gone on!!
pagwatch.
Many of the parents and families of the people i work with say that a viral infection or similar seemed to be the catalyst which "started" their DC's autism, and one of the parents in particular has a PhD as he has done so much research since his son's autism came to light. Many tell of normal development, language, toileting, behaviour and so on, then as if there was a "switch" that got turned off and the DC regressed at an alarming rate and lost many or all of the skills they'd learned. So the story isn't so far removed from those of you who are sure that the mmr was the trigger or cause of asd in DC/people you know. I think I'm somewhere in the middle ground tbh, so yurt please don't treat me like the enemy!!
I have been teaching students with ASD for twelve years, head of the centre for eight, so do agree that there has been an increase in referrals, although in partnership with that, the diagnostic tools and general research and understanding of autism are improving (HOORAY) though gradually. From my experience, the people coming in more recently have more complex needs, such as mental health issues on top of autism, and a significant number with sensory impairment with autism.
I'm also skeptical enough to see that as honey said in the OP, my children have so many allergies that they are at risk of some sort of reaction to the mmr jab - thus the way that we have decided to delay the immunisations. I think that if the government would alter the age at which they recommend the MMR, (IE later) then the evidence would become much clearer. If those who were at greater risk of side-effects from the jab were offered alternatives, imo it would be ideal. But governments don't do stuff like that, do they..... I think we'll all agree on one thing - loads more research is needed as, like yurt says, the "different types" of autism are not anywhere near well enough documented, let alone understood.

jorange, yes all of the MMR are live vaccines.

Does anyone know exactly which vaccines are required by schools here in England...i.e. which vaccines a child must have before admitted to school? Cheers.

PS - This post is extremely helpful. Glad we are not alone in all of the angst we've been feeling over all of this.

none at all to my almost certain knowledge

Tricey - a school will ask for details of vaccinations but it's not compulsory to have any of them - at least not at my boys' schools.

You might be surprised if you are from the US, but they don't ask you about vaccination status on admissions forms, and when they give them out at school you are asked whether you want your child to have them, and you are allowed to opt out without giving a reason (but I just say we have all our health care at the doctor's).

This is the situation for state schools. Possibly if you are at an independent private American school in Britain they may have their own rules.

I've written this from memory and without checking, but will be very surprised if I'm wrong.

I think the same tricey - they don't have to have any of them. after all it's meant to be parental choice (albeit with govt brainwashing)

Sorry -- fortyplus may be right about the query on admissions forms, but I've only come across that at private schools.

May I add that you can end up getting lots of reminders about them, and when and if there are medicals the school nurse may send you a form with boxes ticked of which vaccines she thinks your child needs. These are not instructions and you are free to say no.

blisteringbarnacles -I didn't say they asked on admissions forms. I was asked after the place at the school had been allocated.

That's good to hear. We recently signed up with a GP who seems hell-bent (i.e. eager) to get our babies on the ususl schedule. I've been very turned off and annoyed by their 'reminders' in person, phone, and post. Is this pressuring common to NHS?

Tricey are you American? In UK schools/LA are not allowed to make vaccination compulsory prior to attending state school, not sure about private schools.
I'm guessing your GP must be in a fairly middleclass area where he has a good chance of getting enough 'points' so that he will get paid for vaccinating. As I said on another thread previously in my inner London borough the uptake is so poor they have given up calling anyone for anything (thereby compounding the problem no doubt)hence lots of measles doing the rounds in both adults and children and me having to make about 6 visits to GP/HV in order to get jabs (did mean to write and complain to PCT never quite found the time!)

sorry forty-plus, i read you wrongly

There is quite a lot of pressure but lots of doctors, health visitors and practice nurses tend to be reasonably understanding. It's up to you whether you have "the conversation" with them or not; I chose not to, and simply delayed and delayed until they were too old. The school continues with it's encouragement but I've found that nobody is really that hardline about it.

really annoyed that I put an apostrophe in "it's"

gigglewitch
quickpost and run here but had to say that I absoloutely didn't intend to treat you like the enemy.
I am sorry if it seemed like that

I was just picking up on the co-incidence thing. As you can imagine i have heard that one a few times before!
FWIW i also think that DS2 succumbed becasue he was still carrying the left overs of chicken pox - so it sits withthe whole viral load thing that you have come across. And he was just bursting with thimerosal as i was a neg mother and had had fillings remoeved.

It is hugely complicated isn't it

gigglewitch- I didn't treat you like the enemy, sorry if you thought I did- I just asked which bit of Wakefield's paper didn't stand up and pointed out that regressive autism is difficult to miss (I hate that suggestion tbh- it's usually delivered as fact on the TV by someone who wouldn't recognise autism in an 18 month old if it was screamingly obvious anyway. It's just wrong that you don't notice regression - videos have confirmed that to me). TBH I don't see anyone as the 'enemy' my whole interest in what triggers autism was borne from having ds2 and ds3 after ds1. My main interest in understanding what is know in this are was to stop it happening to them too, and the things we've avoided have extended further than vaccinations.

this is the details of a conference presentation from 2005 referring to the subgroup Wakefield is interested in. It's got everything in one place for people who are interested.

blisteringbarnacles- I found the same- all I've ever really had to say was 'they're not having them' (politely- but just a clear refusal) and it's been fine - a surprising number have said 'don't blame you I'd do the same in your situation' as soon as I've said no. When ds3 was in hospital I was asked why a couple of times by consultants, but the only person who seemed to think she had to try and persuade me was a junior doctor.

Ds1's paediatrician thought it was absolutely wonderful that ds1 regressed despite having the single measles jab and took every opportunity to mention that for a while but I think that just shows how he totally missed the point, doesn't understand the research and it's therefore rather frightening that he's the one you get sent to locally if you're unsure about vaccination Luckily we don't see him anymore, we see his younger, far more switched on and open to alternatives underling.

god knows what the last sentence first paragraph was meant to say. Perhaps: My main interest in understanding what was known in this area was to stop it happening to them (ds2 and ds3) too, and the things we've avoided have extended further than vaccinations.

FWIW Just as an anecdote, my DD is in full time schooling now and has had no vaccinations. The school have absoloutely no problem with that and actually have never been informed why. Eldest son has not had any since his at 18months and his school have always just accepted that. he recently turned down offer of BCG and again they have not questioned us. Both are fee paying schools.

DS2's school have never asked us about whether he will have any more vaccinations and where his schedule stopped. No surprise there then

ok yurt & co!!
Wakefield stuff seemed particularly small scale and subjective to me. yes he did identify and research properly what i had previously only heard called "auty gut" by Donna williams, Ros Blackburn and the like who i have met at conferences. I think that the study needed to be made (or repeated) on a far larger group than twelve, and the 'control' elements need refining. Am off for a look at yurt's link in a minute. yurt it would be really interesting to hear what the other things that you have done / avoided with no's 2 & 3, (professional curiosity )have you posted it anywhere around MN before?
Anyway, like we all keep saying, tis good to share our opinions and experiences on this and it just goes to show what a minefield it is. Yet another thing ma mother never told me about being a parent

Yes it was a small study. I don't think it even started as a study (but not sure about this) just an earnest attempt to find out what was troubling the children and how he could help.
But as for the rest of the evidence.. it's all around us and very depressing it is too.

The smallness of the study doesn;t matter for the type of study it was (it would have if it had been correlational- it wasn't). This is what Horton (editor of the Lancet- and no friend of Wakefield's) said about the study at the recent GMC hearings. The original text I have quoted here can be found on the Cry Shame website in the hearing diaries.:

"Horton said that the Lancet paper was an excellent example of a ?case series?. That this was a standard and entirely reputable way of reporting on a possible new syndrome. He likened it to how the first cases of HIV/AIDS were reported in the early 80s and how the new variant CJD issue broke more recently. He said unequivocally that the science reported in the 1998 Lancet paper ?still stands? and that he 'wished, wished, wished' that the clock could be turned back and the paper be considered in the light it was first presented, without everything that followed."

I have posted a lot about all the various things we have avoided over the years but under different names. Our big ones to avoid were vaccinations, thimerosal & other heavy metals and heavy metal compunds, gluten, antibiotics and later and to a lesser extent cows milk. DS3 has the same gut problems as ds1 (which is a leaky gut- as opposed to a Wakefield type ulcerated gut). Like ds1 he has had repeated ear infections, unlike ds1 his ear infections have never been treated with antibs (ds1 had about 8 courses by the time he was 2). DS3 has just gone back onto gluten (aged 3) and has started headbanging again, so we may need to take him off again.

Yurt you are fab and an expert. How you have the time to research all this I don't know. [impressed icon]

I started in about 2000 blistering barnacles, so it's been read over many years.... (also I now work in autism research- NOT the biomedical side - I couldn't - would not be good for my mental health - but it gives me an excuse to read autism papers at work )