I am a level-headed science trained adult who has done her research, so why am I still wary of the mmr vaccine?

[bunnyhunny]

Before I start, can I just say that I really dont want to offend anyone whose children have been vaccine damaged, as I realise it must be absolutely devastating, and this is not my aim in posting this.

I have a science background, so I have read the scientific papers about mmr and autism. Overwhelmingly, there is NO evidence of a causal link between mmr and autism. Any evidence appears to be anecdotal. Reading the papers, I think about 30+ papers say there is no link, while very few suggest caution.

So why do I still want to refuse the vaccine? There is no evidence that single vaccines are any better, and thimerasol has apparently been removed from the vaccines anyway.
And ds has eczema and food allergies, but I have also researched this and there is no concern about either of these and the vaccine.

So why am I still resisting it in my head?

PLEASE, someone help me make a decision!!!!

The weird thing about watching him on the vide was that all the sounds had gone. We have video of him in bath when he was ill right before he regressed saying 'qwa qwa' when we were asking him what a duck was. He can't even make those sounds now. If I ay 'do this: qwa' he said 'uh' or 'an'. Weird how all the sounds went (but not the language really, that just stood still).

Yurt

Your ds is lucky to have you, an intelligent & articulate mother at his side.

I mean sometimes it feels like the vulnerable children are the ones sent over the top of the trenches for the sake of the others (mine included). The chuffs who sent them over just forget about them.

He didn't regress after a vaccine btw (we do think they were involved in several ways but long complicated story I'm not getting into). The medics are very accepting that he regressed after a (non-vaccine) virus. It's written in his notes.

Of course the medics know best.

Bunnyhunny where are you? What do you think now?

gigglewitch - you seem to be in my position.

from further research today, I gather there is a 'susceptible group' for whom the mmr may trigger autism (gastroenteral thingumybob) I gather the 'susceptible group' to be those witha family history of auto-immune problems. well ds has eczema and food allergies, I have asthma, dh and grandad have eczema and nan has rheumatoid arthiritis since her early 30s. all are autoimmune conditions I believe.
so I believe that ds may well be in the susceptible group.
I will look into whether the measles jab alone has the same risks.
he will be immunised, just maybe delayed, or single jabs, and I am more than willing to pay for it...
but imo the risk of his regressing is something that has to be considered...

and wrt to anecdotal evidence not being taken into account. anecdotal evidence is not rigorously tested - we don't know the family history, any autism in the family, or how soon after the jabs effects would take place. I teach a boy for whom the mmr apparently (allegedly) triggered autism. There is autism in the family, so they will never know if it really was mmr that set it off ot if it is coincidence.

Not that that makes any difference to her, but I can't take her case as proof that mmr may damage ds.

What about the huge rise in immune system disorders and ASD? Do you have any thoughts on what may have caused these? I don't personally buy the increased diagnosis theory.

By the way measles can protect against asthma. Study carried out a long time ago by WHO. Or -- people who have had measles are less likely to have asthma.

Good luck with your decision.

I wonder whether our immune systems are compromised not by the vaccines themselves but by not catching diseases and our bodies fighting them off? Combined with obsessive cleanliness and adulterated food, there must be consequences down the line - perhaps this is it?

candypandy - I'm not sure I can be cat-ed but I'm happy to send you the gut article about leaky gut and autoimmune disorders. I'm back at work today so might not be around until this evening.

thanks yurt.. i don't think i can be cat-ed either. I've only just worked out how to do icons and start a thread! everything else beyond me. Is there a link? Or if you give me some key words maybe I can google it?

haven't read whole thread, but DD2's excema flared up right after her MMR jab. It went down again after a couple of weeks of no dairy.

you need to pay to get it (so better to get if free from me ;o) . You can email me on nezumi35 at googlemail dot com (I think- hope it works!)

this is the beginning of the article

a similar article

this only strenghthens my feelings that if ds has eczema and food allergies then he may be in the susceptible group...

If you decide against MMR do you get the single measles jab or just not vaccinate at all? I ask because DD is due the MMR but we are holding off until we have learnt as much as possible about it and are confident that it is what we want. If I was a SAHM and DP didn't work away then I would forget the vaccination as I would be guarenteed to be around when DD gets measles (and mumps and rubella) and could care for her as soon as she is ill, but I am not so i am so scared that something would happen to her whilst at nursery and when DP is away.

I guess what I am asking is is the single measles jab as 'risky' as MMR and if not then why not as it is still a live measles vaccine isn't it?

Gosh, I'm so confused and I too am a scientist. I feel so irrational.

It's not irrational I promise to question this. There are plenty of doctors, pharmacologists and immunologists who are asking the same questions. There's even a Nobel prize winning chemist who has "gone over" to questioning the conventional wisdom on allopathic medicine. I don't know the answer to your question, though I personally wouldn't do single measles. Asking these questions does not turn you into a mushy-brained lentil-weaving hippie. Masses of research out there. But just one tip: if you read a scientific paper or an article, look at the bottom for the funding, or google the names of those who have produced it. You will often find GSK, or Merck, or other vaccine-producers, behind "reassuring" research (am I being patronising? apologies if so) . In other words, money and vested interests. And looking at these does not make you a conspiracy theorist either. I mean if a double glazing salesman was promising you benefits from double glazing you'd take it with a pinch of salt, no?

Gigglewitch
my son didn't have the jab until he was 18 months old ( in fact 18 months and 7 days).
By that time he had clear and observable social skills, was saying half a dozen words and endlessly babbling and was starting to toilet train ( copying big brother . He played with us, enjoyed hidey boo and pop up toys and songs and playing with my saucepans - all the usual stuff. He was also eating a huge rang of food and had no bowel problems.
Within weeks he had lost all of that and was standing in front of the telly with hands clamped over his ears and screaming if we tried to interact. He cut all his food choices down to about six foods and was ...gone. No eye contact, no play.
The worst was all the babbling and talk went imediately. He was silent or he was screaming, nothing else.

It is not a great, conveinent co-incidence. These children disappear. That indescribable thing behind their eyes goes. Think of picking your 18 month old up and that moment when you gaze into their eyes and they gaze back at you. You excahnge something - an emotion, a connection. It is not an imagined connection - and we do realise when it has gone.
Something happened to my son and I know because I was there. Wakefield didn't tell me, nor did the Daily Mail. I watched it happen and I only understood what had happened afterwards when I met other parents like me.

pagwatch
my heart goes out to you and your son

notacheesemaker
thank you .
He is doing really really well now though ( he is 11 now) and whilst still severely affected he has 'come back' quite a bit and is very affectionate and kissy and actually pretty cheeky.

pagwatch

jorange - the theory is something to do with measles altering the permeability of the gut (measles virus found in autistic childrens' guts), and mumps having meningitis (or encephalitis?) as a rare side effect. So, when taken together they are much worse than when taken singly. I think its also true if a child was to catch measles and mumps naturally within a short time scale.

So, now I need to find out if the measles single vaccine is safe...

i like cheeky kids

is the mumps part of the vaccine 'live' as well?

yep all live jorange. Wakefield's original work was on measles and crohns disease. He found that an atypical exposure to measles virus (such as during an epidemic) massively increased the risk of crohns disease developing. This work is not under dispute, quite the opposite- he was a rising star because of it. His view is (I believe- although I have never seen him talk so feel free to correct me) that measles within the MMR represents an atypical exposure to the measles virus. There is some evidence that catching measles and mumps naturally within the same year increases your risk of developing autism ditto measles and chickenpox.

Weird isn't it pagwatch- ds1's regression coincides completely with restricting his diet. He too went from eating everything - he had a very healthy diet- to only eating bread, cheerios and eventually buckwheat pancakes.He then had less than 10 items of food that he would eat for 4 years.

massively might be overstating it- can't remember. It was a significant increase though.