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Declining 8 week vaccinations for my baby - experiences?

999 replies

Plasticpineapple · 24/07/2014 17:32

I don't want this to be about whether you should or shouldn't vaccinate your baby. I have chosen not to and I'm looking for experiences from others who have done the same. What did you say? What did the doctor say? Did you discuss vaccination once the child was older or flat out decline all vaccines?

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 26/02/2015 22:45

The ATSDR toxicological report for Aluminium.

Flarend et al 1997 (yes, it's that old!)

Priest 2004

Mitkus et al 2011

Just to start...

Italiangreyhound · 26/02/2015 22:46

CamilleBordey I know what you mean, one of the reasons I felt so strongly about having ds vaccinated was because he was nearly 4 and I felt unsure he would ever catch it naturally and if other kids are mostly catching at at 2 he would be less likely I felt at 4 as we were not socialising wit lots of 2 year olds. That was my logic! But actually the overriding reason was because of I heard of someone whose child died from chickenpox.

Vlad do you mind my asking how valid this site is?

www.askdrsears.com/topics/health-concerns/childhood-illnesses/chicken-pox-vaccine

I have read and skim read through it and it looks interesting and positive.

Thanks.

bumbleymummy if you take a look at the link above it suggests that Chickenpox vaccine may well be for life but people vaccinated (and in fact anyone) can have their immunity tested. Those who are vaccinated and their vaccination status has changed (my wording as not sure how else to say it!) can have a booster vaccination.

"Worse case scenario is that a VV booster shot may be needed in adolescence or adulthood, although history with the measles vaccines have shown this not to be necessary."
From the link above.

bumbleymummy, I think this subject gets heated for all, and for those of us who have decided on the decision that is recommended by the medical profession it can seem very strange that others have chosen to go against the majority of medical recommendations. For me it is a bit like the whole global warming thing, most people accepting it but a few people not. Hope that is not an offensive comparison.

In one sense I am not going with the majority, because I chose to have extra vaccines for my children because I felt this would be beneficial for them.

I do understand that we all want what is best for our children but I wonder why people who are against vaccination think the medical profession recommends what they do, what would be the point if the risk were greater from vaccination than from disease? Do those against vaccinations think the medical advisors are misguided or misinformed or something else? Genuine question.

DixieNormas · 26/02/2015 22:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DixieNormas · 26/02/2015 22:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bumbleymummy · 26/02/2015 22:54

Italian, iirc they've already had to introduce a second booster for the CP vaccine in the US. This was only done a few years ago so it will be a while before they know if another one is necessary. The problem is that when there is no circulating CP then there is no 'booster' for the vaccine.

bumbleymummy · 26/02/2015 22:55

Sorry, that should be 'natural booster' for the vaccine.

Italiangreyhound · 26/02/2015 23:05

bumblebunny sorry to be so ignorant but what is iirc.

bumbleymummy · 26/02/2015 23:15

If I remember correctly . :) sorry!

vladimpaler · 26/02/2015 23:26

"Re being well informed - I can only judge based on what you've been writing on the other thread. Perhaps you could read some more about waning immunity to the pertussis vaccine and the absence of herd immunity to whiling cough as a result?"

I am well aware that there are some exceptional situations to herd immunity - I just don't see how they are relevant to a debate as to if herd immunity exists are not. This example is an example of an exception, not proof that you should not vaccinate.

"You also seem very unwilling to accept people's experiences of vaccine damage although you have admitted that it does occur."

Of course it is possible for damage to occur from any drug or vaccine. This is about extent, and diagnosis. Is the incidence of damage more than the manufacturer side effects stats say they should be? How do we know? One way we can't know is by totally unqualified people diagnosing this damage for themselves by using the method: "vaccine - then my child got ill - therefore it must have been the vaccine. Let's tell everyone vaccines are bad." Why can you not see the difference between peer reviewed scientific studies, which any reasonable person would accept, and amateur parents who 'think' they have diagnosed vaccine damage because 'they know what they saw'? Just because it is possible for damage to occur - how does this in any reasonable situation suddenly mean it occurs in far more cases than all the pre-release tests say it should do?

"If all parents' accounts of bad reactions were dismissed/ignored/passed off as coincidence by doctors where would we be?"

You speak as though there is a legion of angry parents with 1000's of ASD children all shouting for justice. Show me the evidence (beyond a few vocal individuals who like to put themselves about for whatever personal reasons they have) of these people. How many are there? Why has not one study shown any link? Where is the hard evidence, not highly circumstantial? I am not saying that these people should be totally ignored, but as with many other things that look to be one thing, there seems to be other explanations, and it is about how many compared to how many vaccination have been given. If you search through Mumsnet, you can find many accounts from people who had their child suddenly drop into ASD spontaneously. Why did that happen? What might they have said if the child had just had, say an MMR jab? No conviction without guilt - vaccines serve a critically important job; and unless we can find proof, the few vocal people are doing nothing but spreading hysteria. Our friend in the other thread certainly makes it her business to contribute to pages and pages of threads about vaccines on here; always managing to use phrases like 'my vaccine-damaged child' somewhere. Try searching for her username and the word vaccine.

"Or is that what you think should happen to avoid 'mass hysteria'."

We are already starting to get it. The lies, bunkum and claptrap is spreading like a cancer using the internet. Websites popping up making outlandish claims about vaccines (far worse than we see here); it seems any nutjob with a PC can have their say, and some dimwits just swallow it.

bumbleymummy · 26/02/2015 23:32

"I wonder why people who are against vaccination think the medical profession recommends what they do, what would be the point if the risk were greater from vaccination than from disease?"

I think from the medical point of view they are considering that for the majority, the vaccine will not cause any long term harm and it is seen as 'for the greater good' even though some children may be harmed. From a parents' point of view it's a bit different because what is considered acceptable 'collateral damage' could actually be your child. I would like to see more of an attempt to identify these 'at risk' children rather than applying the one-size-fits-all approach. That would start with actually being more accepting of vaccine reactions and investigating them more thoroughly rather than dismissing them as parental imagination or coincidence.

countessmarkyabitch · 26/02/2015 23:32

Just vaccinate your kid and get down on your knees and thank whoever you believe in that some very clever people invented vaccines. And your kids chances of dying horribly in childhood plummeted when they did so.

If only we could vaccinate against stupid.

bumbleymummy · 26/02/2015 23:36

Vlad, again, it was given as an example to show that high vaccination coverage doesn't necessarily = herd immunity. It wasn't used to say 'don't vaccinate'.

Why do you seem to think the only form of 'vaccine damage' is ASD?

vladimpaler · 26/02/2015 23:37

You said:
"The safety of injecting it has been based on a study using a few rabbits (flarend et al iirc) and a trial on a single adult male. Perhaps not as well studied as you'd like to think."

I asked what you grounds where for making the assertion that it is not well studied.

You quoted me 3 reports:

The ATSDR toxicological report for Aluminium.

Flarend et al 1997 (yes, it's that old!)

Priest 2004

Mitkus et al 2011

And used the words 'just for a start'.

I don't really know where you are going with that, as you seem to be suggesting that several studies have been done.

All I can say is that the FDA in the USA, and every regulatory agency in Europe has established body aluminium burden levels, that they seem to think they have established using methods other than 'think of a number'. Most annoyingly, aluminium content in vaccines is far below these levels, so I don't really see what grounds you have for trying to suggest to the posters here that the studies the establish these levels are flawed or incomplete (in your expert opinion of course!). Perhaps you should be looking closely at the body burden standards for radiation, or copper maybe? Perhaps they are 'not as well studied as you think' as well? Typical anti-vaxxer FUD comment.

vladimpaler · 26/02/2015 23:40

Italiangreyhound Vlad do you mind my asking how valid this site is?

www.askdrsears.com/topics/health-concerns/childhood-illnesses/chicken-pox-vaccine

I have read and skim read through it and it looks interesting and positive.

It looks like a very sensible view of the situation to me.

vladimpaler · 26/02/2015 23:46

"Vlad, again, it was given as an example to show that high vaccination coverage doesn't necessarily = herd immunity"

Okay....so you point to an exception to the overriding rule. I don't understand what that contributes to this discussion?

"Why do you seem to think the only form of 'vaccine damage' is ASD?"

I don't think that. Vaccines like many drugs can have a great many side effects:

www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/pages/reporting-side-effects.aspx

I believe what the tests and science tells me can happen, and the likelihood of that. Everything else is unproven and dangerous hearsay.

Postchildrenpregranny · 26/02/2015 23:47

Camille
I agree. I had chickenpox aged 16 and was realy ill (Plus spots in unmentionable plaaces) So glad mine got when very young
Dad at DD1 school nearly died of it. Its far worse as an adult. But aren't most childhood ilnesses ?

bumbleymummy · 26/02/2015 23:53

Actually you asked 'your source for that?"

I thought you were asking for the source of the oral levels, the rabbit study and the single adult male study. If you look into all the studies that discuss the 'safety' of Aluminium in vaccines they all come down to those three - the ATSDR report which established 'safe' levels for orally administered Al (and inhalable), the rabbit study and a single male. So not a huge amount of data, no. Unless you think that is adequate?

Mitkus looks at the levels of Al in the current vaccination schedule and calculates results based on that study. They state themselves:

"Although based on the most recent data available, there are several uncertainties in our analysis. First, the published retention function for aluminum (Eq. (1)) is based on results for only one person, albeit data have been acquired from this adult for twelve years [5]. Ideally, the retention function would have been derived from pharmacokinetic data in infants or in more than one adult; however, an expansion of this analysis is unlikely."

"Second, the results of Flarend et al. [27], from which we obtained our estimate of the rate and extent of absorption of aluminum hydroxide and phosphate following intramuscular injection, are based on data from only two rabbits per adjuvant tested. The low number of animals in that study is not surprising, given that it was primarily an exploratory inves- tigation into the disposition of injected aluminum, utilizing, at that time, a new method for detecting radioactive Al in the body (accelerator mass spectrometry). Ideally, the results of that study should be confirmed using a larger number of animals..."

bumbleymummy · 27/02/2015 00:01

Vlad, you know why WC was being discussed on the other thread. It was one of the examples you brought up yourself for why herd immunity is important iirc.

It's not necessarily an exception. If you get waning immunity to any vaccine or a large enough adult population who have not been vaccinated or contracted the disease then herd immunity can not exist. Kind of obvious surely?

Why did you focus on ASD in your last post then when I just said 'vaccine damage'? We also established that under reporting can and does occur (to quite an extent - see previous link to study) so that actually impacts on the figures showing the 'likelihood that it happens' yes?

SilenceInTheLibrary · 27/02/2015 00:01

I had a 'friend' on FB do a massively stupid anti-vax post - and she actually had the nerve to quote Ben Goldacre's Bad Science blog on 'big pharma' to support her argument.

For a second I thought I might point out to her that Ben Goldacre is firmly pro-vaccination. The I thought better of it and just de-friended her.

I'm so grateful I live in a country and time where our children are vaccinated routinely.

SilenceInTheLibrary · 27/02/2015 00:16

"If only we could vaccinate against stupid."

YY to this.

Italiangreyhound · 27/02/2015 00:46

It's exactly because I do not want my child to have chickenpox later than it is usually caught that I had him vaccinated and also because once I knew there was a vaccine I could not just ignore it.

I had better bow out as all a bit technical for me now but I hope those who are very entrenched in their positions will re evaluate. It is good to keep an open mind. But most of all the science of the subject is the vital thing.

DidThatJustHappen · 27/02/2015 01:00

Please immunise your kids you crazy fools! I am shocked at the number of "flat earth society" people here.... I am worried about my child being at nursery with the offspring of these crazy stupid people. Unvaccinated kids should not be allowed in nurseries, schools, playgrounds....in fact they shouldn't be allowed to leave their houses. God I am shocked at the stupid people!

bumbleymummy · 27/02/2015 07:16

"It's exactly because I do not want my child to have chickenpox later than it is usually caught that I had him vaccinated"

Well it's usually caught in childhood. There's not really a specific age as such. I think if they haven't caught it by adulthood (particularly girls) then it would make sense to consider it. (Or situations such as expats) Persobally I'm glad mine have had it and I don't have to worry about checking their immunity status for the res

"once I knew there was a vaccine I could not just ignore it."

bumbleymummy · 27/02/2015 07:17

Sorry early post.

Checking their immunity status for the test of their lives.

Re not ignoring vaccines. Other countries have vaccines on their schedule that we don't give in the UK.

bumbleymummy · 27/02/2015 07:20

"I am worried about my child being at nursery with the offspring of these crazy stupid people. "

Why? Is your child not vaccinated?

Re Unvaccinated children not being allowed to leave the house.

What about adults who weren't vaccinated as children? Or children who have been vaccinated but ego aren't immune/their immunity has waned? Have you actually though this through?

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