Declining 8 week vaccinations for my baby - experiences?

[Plasticpineapple]

I don't want this to be about whether you should or shouldn't vaccinate your baby. I have chosen not to and I'm looking for experiences from others who have done the same. What did you say? What did the doctor say? Did you discuss vaccination once the child was older or flat out decline all vaccines?

[Zeyneps]

Oh, sorry, I strayed from the initial question, my GP didn't question me much, it was straight forward, I kept getting the reminders though.

[Zeyneps]

My son is 12, vaccine free and doesn't catch any viral infections going on around him, he has a very strong immunity generally, however, I must stress that he was breast fed exclusively for 6 months (nothing added to his diet) and carried on with mums milk for a few years after that (no dairy). He also never had sugar until going to preschool, there it was given without my consent. He never had eczema unlike my daughter who had severe eczema soon after her vacs. I was very young and uninformed then,that was 23 years ago.
Just to add, he attended a crèche for a very short time when he was one and caught measles from the others who had been vaccinated that week, he recovered very well from it without any medical intervention.

[bumbleymummy]

Yes, Aly tests that are designed to test for multiple things can do so. In this case though the HPV test only tests for strains of HPV not pre-cancerous cells as you have insisted throughout the last few pages. It's used to identify people who have certain strains of HPV that are more likely to cause cervical changes and it does that well. Not sure why you think it needs to do something else as well in order to be useful.

Hope you have a lovely holiday. While you're away maybe you can read up on the difference between a virus and pre-cancerous cells

[Alyosha]

A test for one thing can also be a test for something else, Bumbley. I.e. A test for bio markers can also be a test for autism. And a test for HPV can be used as a primary screening tool to find women with pre cancerous cells. That is how it is being used.

Yeah so you don't want to tell us what you think. Apart from the fact that "you're not against it". Very informative.

I'm going in holiday now, but enjoy your insinuations while I'm away.

[bumbleymummy]

It's used to test for certain strains of the HPV virus.

to determine whether someone is at risk of developing cervical cancer.

[bumbleymummy]

We've done MMR to death

[bumbleymummy]

No, Aly it's not. It's used to test for the HPV virus. You don't seem to understand that a test doesn't have to test directly for pre-cancerous cells in order to determine whether some it at risk of developing cervical cancer. Amusing as it is to watch you saying the same (incorrect) thing over and over I think it's fairly obvious that you're just not going to get it.

The CDC haven't stated that it's a HIV/Aids test as I'm sure you are well aware. :) You can try to twist that one too if you like but I'm pretty sure they're not ever going to agree with you.

Nah, we've done MMR death. Feel free to read back over previous comments.

[Alyosha]

And anyway, let's get back to where our delightful conversation started: what's your stance on MMR.

So far I know:

that you don't think Mumps is a disease we need to vaccinate for
that 15 month olds don't need Mumps
that you don't need a 3 in one vaccine
that you think it could trigger autism

Apparently you're not anti-MMR though.

Do when do you think it's appropriate to give MMR?
When would you personally give MMR?

[Alyosha]

HPV testing is testing for pre cancerous cell changes. That is how it is used. It is more effective at testing for pre cancerous cell changes than smear tests. Which you accept, so not sure where the issue is!

So you missed the part where they say that if you have that particular illness, you have HIV/AIDS, no further questions asked?

[bumbleymummy]

Aly - do you still think that HPV is testing for pre-cancerous cell changes or have you accepted that is incorrect? Simple question. The fact that you have started to reword things is giving me hope. I think you have caught on to your mistake.

Yes, I know you linked to it. I still can't see where they've said it's a HIV/Aids test. That's why I was asking you. I guess it didn't. I didn't think so. Just an assumption you made.

[Alyosha]

Bumbley you're clearly finding it very difficult to understand - you accept that HPV is better at telling us whether women have pre-cancerous cell changes than Smears alone, so surely you do actually accept HPV as a first line test for pre-cancer?

I'm sure it's getting in somehow.

I've linked to it - if you have that type of pneumonia, and you aren't otherwise immuno-compromised, you are assumed to have HIV/Aids.

And anyway, let's get back to where our delightful conversation started: what's your stance on MMR.

So far I know:

that you don't think Mumps is a disease we need to vaccinate for
that 15 month olds don't need Mumps
that you don't need a 3 in one vaccine
that you think it could trigger autism

Apparently you're not anti-MMR though.

Do when do you think it's appropriate to give MMR?
When would you personally give MMR?

[bumbleymummy]

Nope, Aly. It's not testing for both things. It's only testing for different strains of the HPV virus - as supported by anything I've linked to and anything you've linked to. Nothing you have linked to supports your idea that the HPV test tests for pre-cancerous cell changes - because it doesn't. That's not what it's for. I actually think you realise that now. I'm glad :)

Haven't found anything that says that the CDC consider it to be a test for HIV/Aids. That is why I was asking you for the quote.

[Alyosha]

And anyway, let's get back to where our delightful conversation started: what's your stance on MMR.

So far I know:

that you don't think Mumps is a disease we need to vaccinate for
that 15 month olds don't need Mumps
that you don't need a 3 in one vaccine
that you think it could trigger autism

Apparently you're not anti-MMR though.

Do when do you think it's appropriate to give MMR?
When would you personally give MMR?

[Alyosha]

Bumbley it's a test for both things :)

Maybe if your read the very first article you would be able to understand.

I suppose you have dug yourself into a hole now.

Why do you think HPV test is alone a more accurate predictor of the existence of pre-cancerous cells than a positive pap?

silence

Why is HPV testing being used as a front line test for cervical cell changes?

more silence

Can a test for something never be a test for anything else?

I've already posted it Bumbley. Read it.

[bumbleymummy]

Smear tests (pap smears) test for pre-cancerous cells. HPV tests do not test for pre-cancerous cells. HPV tests test for certain strains of HPV. (ad infinitum)

"The HPV test is being used to identify cell changes"

No, it doesn't identify cell changes. See the link to the test information from earlier to see what the test actually does - it tests for certain strains of HPV.

Not pedantic - accurate. You're saying that a test tests for something that it does not. Of course I'm not going to agree with that.

Can you post the quote from the CDC that says that the PCP test is actually a test for HIV/Aids? Thanks.

[Alyosha]

No Bumbley, it's being used as a test to identify whether a woman has pre cancerous cell changes that need to be investigated.

The links I provided show it is being used as a test of women who have pre cancerous cells, so they can be appropriately managed.

In fact it is a more accurate test of the existence of pre cancerous cells than smears are. Do you disagree with that?

If pap smears are all you need to identify pre-cancer, why do women who have three positive paps in a row get referred for colpsocopy?

And why do you think HPV is more accurate at identifying women who will go on to develop cancer than smear tests, if smear tests are a test of pre cancer and HPV tests aren't?

The HPV test is being used to identify cell changes. It is being used as a front line test to identify women with cell changes and triage them through either colposcopy or pap tests.

You're clearly not going to agree. I think you are being pedantic in the extreme tbh.

Is a test for biomarkers only a test for biomarkers and not for autism?

Did you read the link? What's the issue you have with that statement?

Where did I say it's too deadly? I mean it's clearly a net positive to vaccinate against in childhood. If you're happy to take the risk, I mean go right ahead. It's still a higher risk than not vaccinating.

[bumbleymummy]

Nothing wrong with it. Doesn't say that it's testing for pre-cancerous cell changes though - does it? :)

"Colposcopy is not a test of HPV, Bumbley"

I didn't say it was. I know what a colposcopy is, thanks.

"Why do we test for HPV, Bumbley?"

Because certain strains of HPV are more likely to cause cell changes. That does not mean that the HPV test tests for those pre-cancerous cell changes.

"Pap tests are less effective at identifying cell changes than HPV."

HPV is a virus. The HPV test is not used to identify cell changes.

[bumbleymummy]

Just because HPV can cause cell changes does not mean that the HPV test looks for pre-cancerous cell changes. It looks for the presence of HPV. If a woman has HPV then she is more likely to develop those pre-cancerous cell changes. Those cell changes are not identified by the HPV test. The pap smear is used to test for abnormal cell changes. Another approach is to send a woman straight for a colposcopy if she tests positive for HPV.

Yes, my mind has been boggling for pages. I really can't understand why you don't get this but I guess you're just not going to.

Can you post this quote from the CDC that says that the PCP test is actually a test for HIV/Aids? Thanks.

"HPV is a test for pre cancerous cells, and it is being used as such"

No it isn't and no it isn't. It's a test for HPV strains and that is how it is being used. I think I've exhausted every possible way to say this now

"Is it perhaps the pre-cancerous cells that the HPV test has identified more accurately than the Smear?"

No, because the HPV test doesn't identify pre-cancerous cells. If you think it does then can you explain why, in some approaches, people who have a positive HPV test are then referred for a pap smear to test for abnormal changes (as quoted above)?

Too deadly not to vaccinate against in childhood.

[Alyosha]

Colposcopy is not a test of HPV, Bumbley. It's to ascertain the severity of the cell changes the HPV test picked up.

Why do we test for HPV, Bumbley?

Pap tests are less effective at identifying cell changes than HPV. Do you agree with that sentence?

[Alyosha]

The authors found that the HPV test identified about twice as many serious cases of cervical disease in the 25-29 age group as the Pap did."

Please explain how this sentence is wrong, Bumbley. Or do you think cervical disease is a different thing from cell change..?

[bumbleymummy]

From your link

"Two HPV genotypes are responsible for about 70% of all invasive cervical cancers. Patients who test positive for either of these genotypes should receive an immediate colposcopy" (testing for HPV - not cervical cell changes)

"There are another 12 HPV genotypes. The panel suggests that if women test positive for any of these other genotypes, they should be followed up with a repeat of both the HPV test and a Pap in 12 months." (HPV test for HPV, pap smear to detect abnormal cells)

As I said earlier. If you haven't got it by now you just aren't going to get it. It's not a difficult point I'm trying to get you to understand - just a simple difference between what the tests actually do - how they work.

[Alyosha]

The CDC says that if you have that illness (and you are not otherwise immuno-compromised) you have HIV/Aids. No HIV test required to confirm.

Do HIV tests test for HIV even though they only look for antibodies?!

HPV is a test for pre cancerous cells, and it is being used as such. Do you disagree with it being used as a primary screening tool? In many primary screening methods paps are not used at all, and instead you are immediately referred to colposcopy. Why do you think that is? What are they looking for when they do the colposcopy, Bumbley? Is it perhaps the pre-cancerous cells that the HPV test has identified more accurately than the Smear?

If we develop a biomarkers test for autism will you refuse to believe it is anything other than a test for biomarkers?

I never said mumps was "too deadly" I just pointed out it still killed and disabled children. Which it does.

[Alyosha]

Do you disagree with the research that shows that HPV is more accurate than smears at identifying if you will go on to develop cancer?

How can you possibly then turn around and say that HPV is not a test for pre cancer?

What magic thing does HPV do to make you get cancer if it is not causing cell changes?

The mind boggles

[bumbleymummy]

No Aly, it isn't because it doesn't test for pre-cancerous cells. (see above)

They are using it to test for strains of HPV. (This has been said before) Testing for HPV is not the same as testing for pre-cancerous cells - no matter how much you want it to be. (see information about the test)

I didn't only read the part that agreed with me. There is nothing in the entire thing that says that the HPV test is testing for pre-cancerous cells.

"That’s why in April, the Food and Drug Administration unanimously approved an HPV DNA test developed by Roche as a primary screening tool for cervical cancer for women ages 25 and older. The test screens for the strains most commonly linked to the cancer — HPV 16 and HPV 18 — as well as for others. Along with the approval, the FDA offered guidelines for how the test should be used, advising that women who test positive for HPV 16 or HPV 18 should have a colposcopy, or a procedure that magnifies the cervix so physicians can take a better look at abnormal cells and take biopsies if needed".

The entire thing supports what I've been telling you for pages but you just don't want to admit it.

Oh dear - from that you've deduced that it is an Aids/HIV test? The CDC didn't actually say that did they?

Links to mumps stats upthread - WHO for mumps encephalitis incidence. Encephalitis website for incidence of mumps encephalitis - 1 in 200 to 1 in 5000.

Your argument was that mumps was too deadly to not vaccinate against in childhood.

[Alyosha]

"The second paper published in the journal examines end-of-study results from the ATHENA trial. In the study, 42,209 women aged 25 and older had both Pap and HPV testing and the results were compared. The researchers also examined data on the impact of starting HPV screening at different ages.

The authors found that the HPV test identified about twice as many serious cases of cervical disease in the 25-29 age group as the Pap did."

The HPV test is being used to identify Cervical Disease as a primary screening tool.

Should they not be using it instead of Pap? www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/287805.php