Declining 8 week vaccinations for my baby - experiences?

[Plasticpineapple]

I don't want this to be about whether you should or shouldn't vaccinate your baby. I have chosen not to and I'm looking for experiences from others who have done the same. What did you say? What did the doctor say? Did you discuss vaccination once the child was older or flat out decline all vaccines?

Aly - Could wild Rubella trigger autism in "certain susceptible individuals" Bumbley?

I don't know. Possibly. Didn't someone mention earlier that contracting rubella during pregnancy was considered a possible cause(yes, cause) of autism? I do remember reading a paper about it at one point. Do you think it's a possibility or do you think there is no possibility of it ever happening to anyone anywhere? What are your views on environmental triggers of autism in general?

Hak, because there is a significant level of under reporting of reactions (severe and otherwise)in general. Do you think it's impossible that a severe vaccine reaction hasn't been reported? What about severe drug reactions?

For all you know drinking Ribena could trigger autism in certain susceptible individuals. The pertinent bit being for all you know: which is very very little.

You're an expert on autism triggers are you countess? So you can definitively say which environmental factors may trigger autism and which ones most definitely never ever will?

I'm not claiming to be an expert on autism triggers (that's why I said I don't know). I will read the research with interest. I'm not going to jump on the 'anything but' bandwagon that you all seem to be driving just yet.

Anything's possible, Bumbley. That's why we research and find out what is and isn't likely to cause autism.

That's how we know vaccines don't cause autism.

We've determined that you believe Rubella to be a harmless childhood illness - as per what I said in my "Trying to articulate what Bumbley thinks as she won't tell us" paragraph. What else have I got right?

We can't prove a negative either, Bumbley. Sadly there are some things in life where multiple 100,000+ member studies and the overwhelming opinion of experts has to suffice.

"That's how we know vaccines don't cause autism."

Who said that they did?

I've told you several times what I think. Why don't you just read that and take it as it stands instead of trying to twist it and say something else? You're behaving very strangely.

I don't need you to tell me how research works. :)

scary thread. So many with no ability to understand the following:

• life is a risk and we will all die. Even your baby.
• no medicine is totally risk free and you are seriously dumb if you expect to be told that. No reputable medical professional would tell you that, because it isn't true.
• vaccines present a lower statistical risk than the illnesses concerned. I realise that if your child does get a bad reaction or damage (which there is no arguing that some do) that is no comfort, but you need the intelligence to judge risk. Those 'harmless' illnesses kill, deafen and damage.

correlation and causation - learn the difference. Plenty of reputable info online to help you with that.

should you choose not to vaccinate:

think about those who have no choice; children with reduced immunity due to other medical conditions, for example.

do remember not to take precious unvaccinated bub on long-haul travel, and to tell it that it is totally unprotected before it goes off on its gap year so it can make its own decision at that point.

if you take it even as far as Europe and IF it gets bitten by a mammal, you also presumably will not be getting a precautionary rabies jab because you believe vaccines are harmful? Let us hope that in this unlikely event, the animal doesn't have rabies because otherwise your child WILL have a 100% probability of dying an excruciating death.

Oh, and don't let it in the garden, tetanus 'germs' are everywhere.

there's no smallpox. Isn't it wonderful?

God no, I don't pretend to be, I know what you know, which is slightly more than fuck all. Which is why I am happy to take the word of those who are experts. You should do the same.

Bumbley, you said that they could trigger autism. Is that wrong? Do you not think we have ways of discerning whether or not autism is triggered in a population of vaccinated vs. non vaccinated children?

We do, and we've found that they don't.

But Bumbley, you haven't told me what you think :(

You've said that you're not against vaccinations.

But you go on and on about aluminium, how vaccines could trigger autism or could cause brain damage.

So you can see the confusion really. You articulate an anti-vax position but then tell us you aren't anti-vax.

That's why it's difficult - I'm not trying to twist your words. You said you I got your position wrong. Correct it - then I won't be twisting your words.

At the moment you haven't articulated a position to twist.

Just come out with it.

Are you generally against vaccination for 99.9% of the population that haven't been medically advised to avoid vaccination? :)

Special - so before the tetanus vaccine was introduced all children who played in the garden got tetanus did they?

Countess, slightly more than fuck all about what?

Environmental triggers?

About the topic under discussion, obv.

Bumblelymummy- why do you think that the the MMR vaccine might trigger autism in succeptible individuals?

"Special - so before the tetanus vaccine was introduced all children who played in the garden got tetanus did they? "

No. But a significant number who sustained puncture wounds in such circumstances did.

I said I didn't know. I said they could potentially in certain susceptible individuals.

I haven't seen these studies where they have identified groups of susceptible children and compared vaccinated vs unvaccinated. Can you link to them please?

I've told you what I think about various different vaccines, their timings and effectiveness. I've told you my opinion on different diseases. I've told you my opinion of 'safety' studies. I've told you how I think the current schedule could be changed/improved. The problem is that you can't for me into one of your 'anti-vac' or 'pro-vac' boxes. I'm afraid that's your issue, not mine.

I haven't said anywhere that I'm against vaccination :)

So do you also think that microwaving baby milk, living near an electricity pylon, a bf mother eating foods with pesticides on them, sitting in a car seat, drinking Rubens and watching In the Night Garden might be potential triggers for autism?

You don't need to say the words "I am against vaccination" when it is clear on all of your opinions and all of your posts. And couching it all behind potentiallys and possibilities is just cowardly.
Your opinions can't feel that secure when you are so unwilling to own them and stand behind them.

Hak, why do you think it doesn't?

Have you looked at the figures for tetanus pre-vaccine? What do you consider to be a significant number of puncture wounds that resulted in tetanus?

Hak, have people reported them as potential triggers? I know that immune dysfunction has been recognised in autism so perhaps that is why they are studying things that impact on the immune system rather than just looking at TV shows.

Countess, but I'm not against it.

So you say, when challenged. The evidence suggests otherwise. But then, you're not really big on evidence.....

If you say so countess :)

Actually Bumbley you fit very very neatly into an anti-vax box, considering there isn't one element of the UK vaccination programme you agree with, and you seem to think that only a couple of vaccinations are needed for a few people, and even then not as combined vaccinations.

As you're not anti-vax, can you tell us the reasons to vaccinate? Why would you vaccinate your children/yourself?

You also still haven't answered whether, in general terms, you agree with vaccination and think that 99.9% of the population can vaccinate safely. Your opinion seems to be what I articulated earlier: you haven't made any corrections to this, just told me that I'm wrong. Why don't you take this opportunity to tell us exactly what you believe. Then we won't be able to twist your words.

Also, can you explain the thinking behind why vaccination could trigger something, but not the disease itself? If you think there's an equal chance of both eventualities happening surely vaccination is the sensible option.

Re autism: well it's impossible to know if a child is or isn't susceptible to autism. So studies haven't been done on these impossible to identify groups. However studies have been done on populations of vaccinated and non vaccinated children, and those vaccinated with MMR and those not vaccinated with MMR. From these we know that there is no link between MMR and autism and indeed vaccines in general and autism. I.e., MMR/vaccines do not cause OR trigger autism.

Just as no one can prove that my potted haycinth didn't cause my colleague's daughter's autism, no one can prove that x vaccine/thing didn't cause someone's autism. You can't prove a negative.

Aly, if you want to call me anti-vac go right ahead. Anti-vac people wouldn't agree with you and you still seem to be making a lot of assumptions though. :)

Reasons to vaccinate/not vaccinate/delay certain vaccines/separate certain vaccines - if you weigh up the risks of the disease and the vaccine and you make an informed decision whichever way. :)

Where have you got your 99.9% figure from and how do you plan to identify the ones who can't be safely vaccinated? The 0.1%?

Where did I say that the disease couldn't trigger it but the vaccine could? I said it was possible that either of them could in certain susceptible individuals. Can you tell me why you consider the possibility that the disease could trigger it but the vaccine never could?

Why would you consider the vaccine the sensible option in that case? Surely they should fall into the 'can't be vaccinated for medical reasons' group?

Why do you think it's impossible to identify 'susceptible to developing autism' groups? There is currently research going on to try to do that. Are they wasting their time in your opinion?

So you don't have the studies you mentioned then? Fair enough.

I haven't asked you to prove a negative.

Jesus Christ, I hate this weasely, drip drip stuff. There is no way that a person unsure about whether to vaccinate their child could read bumbleymummy' sports and not be made more unsure and worried. While simultaneously not actually knowing what she's talking about. She just emanates a miasma of "ooh, I wouldn't do that if I were you" while saying aloud that she's not anti vaccination and people should make their own choices. I'm finding the cognitive dissonance unsettling and I am clear what I think and don't have any decisions to make.

It's calculated and rather despicable. You can protest all you like but when you spend most of your posting time in the anti-vax topic and pop up on cue everytime a relevant thread appears on the rest of the site, and you twist and wheedle points in a very obvious manner, its clear.
It doesn't matter what you pretend your stance is, anyone can see what it actually is.
Have some balls and just be honest.