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Declining 8 week vaccinations for my baby - experiences?

999 replies

Plasticpineapple · 24/07/2014 17:32

I don't want this to be about whether you should or shouldn't vaccinate your baby. I have chosen not to and I'm looking for experiences from others who have done the same. What did you say? What did the doctor say? Did you discuss vaccination once the child was older or flat out decline all vaccines?

OP posts:
Hakluyt · 28/02/2015 21:52

"I am sure you would not dispute though, that vaccine damage can occur. And that that is why there is a compensation fund"

Any medicine that works can have side effects. Have you read the inserts in a bottle of calpol?

Smartleatherbag · 28/02/2015 21:55

Mrsdevere, whenever I read your posts, I want to break into applause. Always put so well, strength with grace and compassion, without self abnegation.
Right, sorry, I'll take my brown nosing elsewhere...

Hakluyt · 28/02/2015 21:55

"There is at least one mner who has been advised not to vaccinate her other children after her ds regressed following a vaccination."

I am really sorry- but I could not believe this unless I had more evidence. There is no evidence at all that vaccination causes autistic regression. None.

Anonimousy · 28/02/2015 22:01

All people are different Hak. I am not going to say this person's name. But she is well known on MN and her story was even 12 years ago when I joined. You don't have to believe it.

It makes perfect sense to me that if an illness can cause a regression which leads to brain damage, which then leads to an autism diagnosis, then a vaccination could also do the same thing in some susceptible children. I am certainly not of the opinion that vaccinations cause autism generally, but I believe parents who know their child and who saw a dramatic and overnight regression.

There are always those who will believe that autism is caused by ABV (anything but vaccines). As I said before, autism is not one thing anyway. It is not one condition.

Anonimousy · 28/02/2015 22:03

Any medicine that works can have side effects - yes I agree with that too.

AuntieDee · 28/02/2015 22:49

Can anyone explain why the percentage of children with ASD is higher in that of unvaccinated children than vaccinated ones?

countessmarkyabitch · 28/02/2015 23:23

Vaccinations have not beeen shown to have any causal link to autism, despite many large studies. The most likely scenario is simply that autistic regression if its going to happen, occurs at the same stage of life as these vaccinations are given. You see a car running, and then a dog running after it, you think one is chasing the other, when its as likely they are both running from something else, or just happen to be both running towards different things.

You know what has been shown to have a link with autism though, more than once? Congenital Rubella.
So, somewhat ironically, the very MMR they are so against actual likely helps prevent some cases of autism.

countessmarkyabitch · 28/02/2015 23:25

cat not car, ffs.

vladimpaler · 28/02/2015 23:36

Hakluyt Sat 28-Feb-15 21:55:21

"There is at least one mner who has been advised not to vaccinate her other children after her ds regressed following a vaccination."

I am really sorry- but I could not believe this unless I had more evidence. There is no evidence at all that vaccination causes autistic regression. None

Anonimousy Sat 28-Feb-15 22:01:30

All people are different Hak. I am not going to say this person's name. But she is well known on MN and her story was even 12 years ago when I joined. You don't have to believe it."

It is the nice lady who laid into me (and me her) this week (look up if you want a name). She 'knows' that the ASD was caused by a vaccine. She also says that the 'establishment' would not admit it, even though she 'knows' it to be true. The circumstances around her being 'advised' not to vaccinate the other child is not clear; but judging by the way she jumped all over me with such personal bile and venom for daring to have a contrary opinion; then threw my attempt to reconcile in my face; I can hazard a guess (which I will keep to myself) as to what probably happened when the vaccination situation was discussed.

The above conversation is just exactly what I have going on about. No proof, but the rumours fly around anyway - frightening people. The phraseology "advised not to vaccinate" lends this story a veneer of respectability; "well, a Dr agreed, so it must be true!", which it absolutely does not deserve.

vladimpaler · 28/02/2015 23:46

Anonimousy Sat 28-Feb-15 22:01:30

"It makes perfect sense to me that if an illness can cause a regression which leads to brain damage, which then leads to an autism diagnosis, then a vaccination could also do the same thing in some susceptible children.

No, no it really doesn't. Armchair logic, without the benefit of biomedical training, or understanding of the mechanisms at work. Many, many studies have been done. NOT ONE FOUND ANY LINKS. With respect, you me, and 99% of the people on this forum have absolutely no business whatsoever in coming up with theories about this. Much more qualified people have studied it endlessly.

I am certainly not of the opinion that vaccinations cause autism generally, but I believe parents who know their child and who saw a dramatic and overnight regression."

Parents who then put 2 and 2 together and make 5; then gob off about it endlessly, in some crusade the reveal the 'awful truth' about vaccines. You hear endless cries from the very vocal, but tiny group of people - you don't get to hear from the 999,999 other sets of parents when 'it was all fine' do you? These cases are so few (despite what the volume of the noise would suggest); they can all be explained through coincidence, environmental and genetic factors etc. I repeat, study after study has found NO LINK.

HedgehogsDontBite · 28/02/2015 23:58

I know someone who believes 100% that the MMR vaccination caused her child's autism. She had the vaccination and then she developed problems which were eventually diagnosed as autism.. I know autism better than most. I'm autistic myself as is my husband, daughter, mum, brother, nephew and niece. I saw the signs of autism in her little girl from day 1. But she won't hear it.

vladimpaler · 01/03/2015 00:17

bumbleymummy Sat 28-Feb-15 20:53:52

"Vlad, I'm not going to agree with forcing people to vaccinate against their will for the sake of the greater good. There have been threads on that very subject before and the majority of people disagree with that idea, even if they are pro-vaccines in general."

Agreed.

"Medicine in general is moving away from the one-size-fits-all approach. Do you disagree with that? Should we treat patients as groups who just happen to have the same condition rather than individuals who may all respond differently to treatment? I don't think disagreeing with a one-size-fits-all approach is that unusual tbh."

Is it now? OK, tell me more. How would you instigate this policy when it comes to vaccination? What tests would you run? What variations could you put in place to the vaccines? Indeed, what are the variables of which you talk?

I'm interested to hear how this new wave of not having a 'one size fits all' policy will affect my GP visits? I am used to being given antibiotics for whatever ailment I turn up with. Does this mean they will start to diagnose me and prescribe the appropriate drug/treatment depending on my diagnosis? What is this witchcraft you speak of? How will affect beds? Well we have different coloured blankets on each bed in the wards? Different size beds? Will you get different treatments for the same illnesses depending on if you are tall or short?

Seriously now - you can't get much less 'one size fits all' than with medicine. The regime of treatment and cocktails of drugs are tailored pretty much to you right now. So what, do you mean?

"You're quoting me out of context. Both of those quotes are factually correct though. A new flu vaccine campaign for children is being rolled out and they did get the strain in the vaccine wrong this year. The risks of many of he diseases to healthy children and adults are fairly minimal. Do you disagree with either of those statements?"

I don't disagree with the first one. Sometimes they do get the strains wrong with flu. It is a guessing game, which they can't always get right. I completely disagree with the 2nd statement however. Flu, like many diseases can be deadly for otherwise healthy people. Complications include muscle inflammation (myositis), central nervous system disease, and heart problems including heart attacks, inflammation of the heart muscle (myocarditis), and inflammation of the sac around the heart (pericarditis). Read up about the 1918 epidemic. That flu took out the healthy people by turning their immune systems against them. So, no I don't think you can see it is minimal risk; even if the vaccine is not always the right one.

"Re your points about LaVolcan's post. Yes, measles complications are well known. Some vaccine reactions are also documented and accepted."

Totally agree there. As long as it is documented and statistically significant, it needs to be taken into account.

"There is an issue of under reporting in general which could affect the figures irt incidence of reactions and I do think that is worth considering."

So you say. This is meaningless; as it by definition can't be accounted for. That is why you use statistical methods like 'standard deviation' etc to check for significance in the data you do have, to extend it to the whole populace.

"I also agree that people seem less inclined to question people who come on and say 'auntie May had x complication from y disease' than people who come on and say 'my child reacted badly to z vaccine'. Even if both the complication and the side effect are known to occur."

Indeed. So, do you agree that it should be normal to accept and account for cases of complications/reactions/side effects when they are documented, it is should be equally normal to reject anecdotal 'links' to side effects/reactions where no evidence exists, and in fact many studies have shown that the anecdotal evidence is simply wrong?

"Go on to the other thread and search for my name and you'll see my posts. Some of the ones directed at you have questions that you haven't answered."

You said it - you tell me what I have missed.

"Vlad, I see you're capable of showing sympathy as long as the poster doesn't suggest that their child's ASD was triggered by a vaccine. Nice."

Now that was nasty-minded bitter little snipe, wasn't it? You have never met me; and at no point have know I ever said or inferred that I am lacking in sympathy for the plight of any ASD child.

Don't try and equate my views on anti-vaxxers with not caring about those children affected, as our venomous friend from the other thread did. Such a tactic is beneath contempt; as it attempts to exploit the child's condition to silence any opposition. That was why I reacted so strongly to it when it was used on me previously - I had hoped that you were better than that.

vladimpaler · 01/03/2015 00:24

HedgehogsDontBite Sat 28-Feb-15 23:58:41
"
I know someone who believes 100% that the MMR vaccination caused her child's autism. She had the vaccination and then she developed problems which were eventually diagnosed as autism.. I know autism better than most. I'm autistic myself as is my husband, daughter, mum, brother, nephew and niece. I saw the signs of autism in her little girl from day 1. But she won't hear it."

There are none so blind, as those who will not see. Mum knows best - after all being a mum makes you absolutely qualified in biochemistry, medicine and statistical analysis.

I wish you all the best - although apparently I only do that if you agree with me.

P.S, if I have accidently said anywhere in the post that I don't care about your daughter; please accept my apologies. I have checked, and can't see anything, but apparently I have a habit of telling people I don't care what happens to their kids on this forum. I must be doing it whist I am asleep!

Sorry - involving you with an most insulting little jibe from another poster, but rather seething about it. Wink

Anonimousy · 01/03/2015 00:26

This isn't necessarily about autism though. I addressed the point one person made that tried to suggest autism is not a significantly challenging condition. The OP did not even mention autism as I recall. People have been compensated for vaccine damage long before Andrew Wakefield.

You cannot possibly argue that vaccine damage doesn't happen.

Anonimousy · 01/03/2015 00:30

I think that what I've tried to point out is that some types of autism might be more genetic and others (like my daughter's) do actually look like some kind of brain damage. So it's very difficult to put them all under one umbrella and say 'they are all not caused by' when they aren't even the same condition.

In any case, I have said this over and over in the past and I've made my point.

Anonimousy · 01/03/2015 00:31

When do you accept that something is actually a complication though?

bumbleymummy · 01/03/2015 08:00

Countess, anon didn't say that the vaccines cause autism. She was accepting the possibility that in certain susceptible individuals they could potentially act as a trigger. There's a difference. What do you think about the current research into environmental triggers for autism?

Vlad, you were by no means an innocent party on that other thread. No one is obliged to accept an 'apology' from you.

Vlad, if you're interested look up 'personalised medicine'. :) Sounds like you could learn a lot.

Re risks to healthy people. You know that saying that something is of minimal risk doesn't mean no risk at all don't you? Yes, otherwise healthy people can get ill too.

You know that most people in the 1918 flu epidemic does from pneumonia? In a time before antibiotics were available? Not to mention what else was going on at that time which would certainly have had an impact on people's health.

Under reporting is meaningless? So the studies mean nothing and the people who are trying to improve it are wasting their time? Interesting opinion. I don't agree with you.

Standard deviation doesn't test for significance.

You showed no sympathy towards the other poster because you didn't believe her.

I will repeat my questions on the other thread when I get a chance. It really would be quite easy for you to find them.

Your little exchange with Anon there didn't make any sense seeing as I just pointed out that you were showing her sympathy compared to how you treated someone else not too long ago.

Hakluyt · 01/03/2015 08:14

I am puzzled by the under reporting thing. Are you saying that there are children who have very serious reactions to vaccinations that are not reported? If you are- how do you know? Obviously there will be under reporting of more minor reactions- in the same way that some of us are more likely to go to the doctor than others.

bumbleymummy · 01/03/2015 08:17

Also vlad, the quotes of mine that you took out of context - you know that they were in response to countess who had written that flu wasn't usually a risk to healthy people as a reason why many people choose not to have the flu vaccine even though they have all the others right?

bumbleymummy · 01/03/2015 08:19

Unanswered question for vlad from this thread. (I've put a few others on the other thread for you)

Do you think the data from those studies I mentioned in relation to Al safety levels are adequate?

bumbleymummy · 01/03/2015 08:23

Hak, yes, more minor reactions than serious reactions are likely to not be reported but the reasons for under reporting (can't remember if they were on this thread or the other) apply across the board.

queentroutoftrouts · 01/03/2015 08:23

My mum was one of those anti vaxxers, her reasoning was the autism scares around at the time. I was promptly struck of the surgery's register by the doctor and so was she. From age 3-16 believe it or not I did not visit a doctor once because I never got ill apart from mild chicken pox at age 8. At 16 when I was old enough to make my own decisions for myself I rejoined a doctors practice and they offered me all of the childhood vaccinations I missed out on, the nurse also read me the riot act about how irresponsible my mum had been. I took them as I believed that the risk was greater for me from not having them especially living in a very inner city area with lots of migrants that may have not been vaccinated as children in their home country. After the vaccines i caught every cold and sniffle going and this is when I started having the first symptoms of ibs. I do believe that they weakened my immune symptom to other things but in the long run I made the right decision for myself and for my children. I do have my dc vaccinated as I believe the risk outweighs the risk of the vaccine. My mum went ballistic when she found out that I'd had them done Hmm.

Hakluyt · 01/03/2015 08:31

So if we're talking about the under reporting of minor reactions- what is the relevance to this thread?

bumbleymummy · 01/03/2015 08:39

Hak, I didn't say it was just minor reactions that were under reported. Just that they were more likely to be under reported.

SilenceInTheLibrary · 01/03/2015 08:54

So you do think there are major reactions to vaccines that are not reported? Who is not reporting, the doctor or the parent?