Declining 8 week vaccinations for my baby - experiences?

[Plasticpineapple]

I don't want this to be about whether you should or shouldn't vaccinate your baby. I have chosen not to and I'm looking for experiences from others who have done the same. What did you say? What did the doctor say? Did you discuss vaccination once the child was older or flat out decline all vaccines?

What MrsTripTucker said.

Ah but I am pro-vaccination, and your posts seem very very anti-vaccination to me. They also appear anti-vaccination to almost every pro-vaccination person in this thread. Do you have any idea why you might be coming across this way? Especially as it seems you don't intend it.

I think future clarification it would be super helpful for you to say in your own words why you aren't anti-vaccination once and for all.

I have read an awful lot of your posts and they all seem anti-vax to me. So I'm not seeing that you are in fact pro-vaccination generally.

Help a woman out? :)

And, if you don't mind, can you clarify the difference between your views and a anti-vaxxer views? As you are adamant that they are different.

bumbleymummy:

"Which questions have you asked me that I haven't answered vlad?"

Let me refresh your memory:

You (and LaVolcan is her own way) stated:

"If you get measles, note that soon after you have gone deaf in one ear, and therefore assume that the measles caused it, why is it not just as valid to assume that if take your child for a jab, and find that they immediately start screaming and regress over the next few weeks, that the jab didn't cause it?How does the first person know that measles caused the deafness, but the second person must assume that the jab didn't cause the adverse reaction?"

I answered with:

"The reason is really very simple:

• Measles have provable complications, that are explicable, documented and accepted as risks. The research linking the complications have been peer reviewed, and included statistically significant numbers that PROVE IT. If you reject that; you reject all science and indeed facts in general.

• Your 2nd example has none of the above. It is a simplistic observation that has NO BASIS AT ALL in any research, study or testing.

Measles compilations are based in fact. The jab example you use is based in fiction. Therefore, you accept one, and reject the other by default unless evidence that is repeatable, statistically significant and accepted by the experts is produced the contrary.

Do you dispute this approach?"

I have answered your question comprehensively (I think), and shown that your approach to relating the observations you make to the scientific facts of a situation is plain wrong. This misunderstanding is absolutely central to why anti-vaxxers think they have a case, by simplistic observation only, when they are so, so wrong. So, rather than glossing over this; prove me wrong. Am I right or am I wrong? Don't ignore me like LaVolcan has done; scooting off back into the woodwork, don't ask me a different question, or try to twist this; just tell me:

Am I right? To refresh your memory again, in case it has slipped your mind:

Measles compilations are based in fact. The jab example you use is based in fiction. Therefore, you accept one, and reject the other by default unless evidence that is repeatable, statistically significant and accepted by the experts is produced the contrary.

Yes or No? If no, tell me why?

"There's a few of mine on the other thread that you haven't answered - you kind of scooted round them and kept having goes at pagwatch instead."

As I am pinning you down on this central point of understanding, it is totally fair that I respond to any questions you feel I have missed. Please ask away.

Regarding Pagwatch, your memory seems to have convenient holes in it. She started it (I can show you the post in case you have forgotten it), she made it personal and insulting (to which I did respond in a clumsy way, which I tried to apologise for as part of my attempt to cool things down), and she threw my attempt at conciliation in my face; as she basically said I was lying when I tried. No reciprocation, just more insults as anything that I do is automatically twisted to fit into the constructed conclusions that she drew about me from my first post. She laughed in my face when I suggested that I listen to what other people say and sometimes change my mind; she actually called me a liar on that as well! I guess this total confidence in one's own judgement, with no possibility of re-evaluation no matter what happens is the mindset that an anti-vaxxer needs to get around the annoying 'reality' thing. Nothing more to be said; and nothing to be gained by trying to reason with her. I don't want to upset her further, or be insulted tbh. It would help to not keep bringing her name into this; hopefully that makes sense?

"I'm a bit curious about why you think it's my responsibility to tell someone to vaccinate their child."

As you seem to be so good at - twisting the question again. It is your responsibility to absolutely not encourage the op not to vaccinate. even by dressing it up as 'a debate'. That's not so hard now is it?

countessmarkyabitch

"And up against them you have a few discredited studies, bad scientists, tinfoil conspiracy theorists, and some unqualified parents who don't know the science from a hole in the ground.

We need to treat these people in the same way we treat aids deniers, those who advise people not to take drugs for their HIV/AIDS because they firmly believe it all the be lies and they know better. They are on a par with those that preach that condoms aren't the way to stop HIV. The arguments put forward by the anti-vax brigade are chock full of outright lies, half truths, misunderstood science and twisted actual information."

Absolutely; much better put than my attempts.

Some people on here are really rude. As for harping on about a measles outbreak, there are very few people who haven't vaccinated at all. Anyone who chooses to pay for singles will not show up on the statistics.

My point is that the uptake rate, especially in places like London will be well over 90% but that will be misrepresented.

Mrs Trip - fuck you right back at you!!

How dare you tell me that autism isn't the worst thing that could happen to my child?

My 13 year old daughter is severely autistic. Last November she RIPPED OUT ALL of her hair. All of it. She suffers from very severe anxiety and screams for 24 hours a day at times. She kicks holes in glass windows and glass doors and is very very difficult to manage.

She is very unhappy and is tormented by her autism. Educate yourself before you decided to tell me that autism is not hard to live with.

To be clear, my daughters autism is not caused by a vaccination. But I will not be told by ignorant people on here that it it nothing

Do you have any further information on the uptake of single jabs in MMR refusers Anonimousy? Would be very interesting to see if possible.

I would be quite happy to explain in a less angry way exactly how my daughter's autism affects both her, and her family on a day to day basis.

Anyone who knows what the reality of severe autism is like will want to avoid it. And if you've never lived with it then you've got no idea whatsoever.

Anyone who has a brain damaged child will feel this way, whether the cause was birth, vaccine damage or an illness. But it's really very very rude and ignorant to try to tell people that autism is some insignificant disorder. It is not.

Anonimousy

"I would be quite happy to explain in a less angry way exactly how my daughter's autism affects both her, and her family on a day to day basis.

Anyone who knows what the reality of severe autism is like will want to avoid it. And if you've never lived with it then you've got no idea whatsoever.

Anyone who has a brain damaged child will feel this way, whether the cause was birth, vaccine damage or an illness. But it's really very very rude and ignorant to try to tell people that autism is some insignificant disorder. It is not."

I am sorry to hear of the problems you have with your daughter's health. Do you have any idea as to what brought the ASD on, or do you think it is just a latent condition waiting to assert itself? I wish you both well.

Alyosha - maybe because I respect someone's decision not to vaccinate them and don't label them irresponsible/selfish/stupid/a conspiracy theorist and tell them to 'fuck off'?

I would consider an anti-Vaxxer to be someone against all vaccines - for everyone, anytime and anywhere. My first post on this thread the other day suggested that people look into what travel vaccines they need if going abroad. Another one suggested that non-immune girls could be vaccinated against rubella at 11/12 rather than having it as part of the MMR at age 1. I also said that women who hadn't had CP should consider the vaccine along with people who found themselves in the same position as another poster (who vaccinated her son to protect his immune suppressed sibling) Not sure how any of those (and other things I have posted) come across as anti-vaccine but hey-ho. You're entitled to your opinion.

Vlad - I didn't post any of the stuff you've quoted there. I think you've mixed me up with someone else. Those questions are still unanswered on the other thread when you have a chance...

Thanks vlad. I think it was possibly caused by a birth injury. There is nobody else in our family with this type of developmental disorder. Unfortunately it can happen to anyone though.

bumbleymummy Sat 28-Feb-15 19:40:16

"Alyosha - maybe because I respect someone's decision not to vaccinate them and don't label them irresponsible/selfish/stupid/a conspiracy theorist and tell them to 'fuck off'?"

Strong language, but the sentiment is correct. By your logic, we should let people who want to commit suicide do so, and not interfere with their freedom of choice. Additionally, not vaccinating is condemning us all to future outbreaks of infectious diseases. If you want to make a dumb decision and then does for it later that is one thing. But your decision in this case affects us all. Civil society requires all of us to give up some of out native freedoms for the good of us all.

"I would consider an anti-Vaxxer to be someone against all vaccines - for everyone, anytime and anywhere. My first post on this thread the other day suggested that people look into what travel vaccines they need if going abroad. Another one suggested that non-immune girls could be vaccinated against rubella at 11/12 rather than having it as part of the MMR at age 1. I also said that women who hadn't had CP should consider the vaccine along with people who found themselves in the same position as another poster (who vaccinated her son to protect his immune suppressed sibling) Not sure how any of those (and other things I have posted) come across as anti-vaccine but hey-ho. You're entitled to your opinion."

1. You are extremely active on a great many threads about vaccines. It seems (well according to you) to be bad form to find some examples to give a flavour of your views.

2. The views that you express come across to many of us (so it seems) as being anti-vaxxer. This may be because you are, and are just subtle; or it could be that you have some interesting opinions 'one size does not fit all' I think was what you said. I personally don't see what good opinions like that (which serve only to introduce doubt into the minds of those who come her for advice) can possibly have? Perhaps it would help if you could suggest some practical application for vaccinations taking into your account your view? Assuming we needed to; how would we practically profile every person for every individual vaccination and somehow tailor the programme to take account of these rather nebulous 'differences' that you seem to be alluding to? What are the differences?

3. You post sweeping statements designed to suggest that vaccines for some diseases are not required:

"Yet a new campaign to vaccinate all children is being rolled out. (Even if they did get the wrong strain this year)

The risk of many of these diseases to healthy children and adults is fairly minimal tbh."

I don't see what help sewing the seeds of doubt in the minds of many who come onto this forum with nebulous ideas, that have no practical application (and are without theoretical basis) has?

"Vlad - I didn't post any of the stuff you've quoted there. I think you've mixed me up with someone else."

My apologies; I did mix you up with LaVolta; sorry about that. If it is no too much trouble, I would be interested in hearing your views on what LaVolta said and my response anyhow?

"Those questions are still unanswered on the other thread when you have a chance..."

You are going to need to help me out with that?

"Thanks vlad. I think it was possibly caused by a birth injury. There is nobody else in our family with this type of developmental disorder. Unfortunately it can happen to anyone though."

I can't imagine how you would cope with that day in and day out without ever loosing your temper. My experience is all at the other end of the lifespan, with all of the problems that brings. Although I am very much not front-line staff (a business suit that turns up sometimes is the best way to define me); during my visits I have been assaulted, stabbed with a fork, spat at and sworn out. How the staff keep smiling sweetly I have no idea. I don't know how long I could go tbh!

Vlad, I'm not going to agree with forcing people to vaccinate against their will for the sake of the greater good. There have been threads on that very subject before and the majority of people disagree with that idea, even if they are pro-vaccines in general.

Medicine in general is moving away from the one-size-fits-all approach. Do you disagree with that? Should we treat patients as groups who just happen to have the same condition rather than individuals who may all respond differently to treatment? I don't think disagreeing with a one-size-fits-all approach is that unusual tbh.

You're quoting me out of context. Both of those quotes are factually correct though. A new flu vaccine campaign for children is being rolled out and they did get the strain in the vaccine wrong this year. The risks of many of he diseases to healthy children and adults are fairly minimal. Do you disagree with either of those statements?

Re your points about LaVolcan's post. Yes, measles complications are well known. Some vaccine reactions are also documented and accepted. There is an issue of under reporting in general which could affect the figures irt incidence of reactions and I do think that is worth considering. I also agree that people seem less inclined to question people who come on and say 'auntie May had x complication from y disease' than people who come on and say 'my child reacted badly to z vaccine'. Even if both the complication and the side effect are known to occur.

Go on to the other thread and search for my name and you'll see my posts. Some of the ones directed at you have questions that you haven't answered.

How dare you tell me that autism isn't the worst thing that could happen to my child

Just wondering why we're talking about autism- we do all accept that autism is not caused by vaccinations, don't we?

Anonimousy,

I think MrsT was well out of line in how she expressed herself. I hope she comes back to read your posts.

Vlad, I see you're capable of showing sympathy as long as the poster doesn't suggest that their child's ASD was triggered by a vaccine. Nice.

Countess and MrsDeVere, I think it is clear that the poster I was referring to was trying to make light of what autism is as a condition. And was even swearing at other parents, who, at the end of the day are only trying to do what they believe is best for their child(ren) even if others don't agree with their position.

I am here to say that I don't blame anyone for being afraid of ASD. Severe autism is, in my informed opinion and having seen what my child goes through, one of the worst conditions a person can have.

My daughter is under a child psychiatrist as well as various other consultants. When he saw her for the first time last year, and saw the damage and the swellings that she had done to herself through ripping her own hair out and punching her head and face, he was utterly shocked and said that he had never seen anything like it ever before and was at a total loss as to what to do to help her.

I think that when people don't vaccinate, it is almost never because they are selfish or stupid, but because they just don't want their child to be damaged. Many people may consider this to be a misguided approach, but nobody wants their child to be damaged, by an illness by a vaccination or by anything else.

Furthermore, autism itself is not one thing. It can have many different causes and presents in many different ways.

I am sure you would not dispute though, that vaccine damage can occur. And that that is why there is a compensation fund.

There is at least one mner who has been advised not to vaccinate her other children after her ds regressed following a vaccination. This person is pro vaccination. She would actually like to vaccinate but has been advised not to.

I cannot pretend to know how awful it must be to lose a child, of course not. But I'm not trying to compare it with having a brain damaged child. I'm just empathising with people generally. However much people support the herd immunity argument, there is not one person who would vaccinate if they knew their child would be damaged as a result.