Labour hate people like me

[Meadowtrees]

I feel sick at the thought of how much our lives are going to change.

This is not a thread to bash or criticise people nervous about Labour. It’s a place for those of us who are feeling very anxious to have a bit of space - it’s not something we are ‘allowed’ to say in public without being called ‘scum’ ‘selfish tories’ or similar. I’m not particularly linked to any party and not sure how to vote, I may spoil my ballot.

Labour have made it very clear that they intend to make us poorer and our lives harder.
I’m a woman - Labour intend to remove women’s rights
I’m rural - Labour aren’t interested in rural areas
I work in a private school - enough said
I have teens - I expect Labour to put vat on uni fees
We both work full time and have slogged our guts out to now be in a position where we have a comfortable (but not high) income - I expect to be taxed more heavily.
We have elderly parents - I expect the cost of care and inheritance tax to increase.

Maybe it’s selfish but we’re screwed and I don’t expect that what we lose will be put to efficient or good use. It feels like we will be punished for having worked hard and being ambitious.

@Turkey98
Am I right to think you are proposing a flat amount of tax payment per person regardless of income? If so do you also believe that VAT should be abolished? After all it would be terribly unfair if wealthy people paid more tax simply because they buy more things.

@Turkey98 as PP’s example, we do have a responsibility to each other. Your good fortune may change at any moment. A kidney failure, road accident, burglary etc. You’d be a fool to think just throwing money at it will solve your problem, or that you’ll always have enough money to throw at it.

Then there’s the human element. Call me a woke (formerly bleeding heart liberal), but I am moved by reports of maltreated children, dirty and with matted hair, and cockroaches falling out of their backpacks at nursery. How can this happen in this country now and is that their fault? Who’s going to pay for them once you take them away from their mum?

I am a woman but I feel bothered by the poverty and lack of money than I do the gender stuff. I guess most here are wealthy and don't need to worry about that.

@WithACatLikeTread you don't actually have to experience poverty to be bothered by it.

It’s over 40 years since I experienced real poverty first hand. I still remember how it felt and there are people now whose lives make mine back then look positively affluent.

True.

I don't think your woke for that - maybe other things, but not that.

I'd agree with you in fact, this is a shared responsibility. Both parents would be in prison, happy to pay for that as a collective tax, minimum standards made much higher for children that parents must provide - no excuses at all. It's completely true fault of the parents and the associated family, and clearly for minors society must stop in - but if parents are not meeting the standard then they need to take the consequences.

I don't consider that re-distribution, just a lot of what-aboutary.

Adults in general have no real responsibility to other adults. Of course family and collectives of like-minded people can come together and agree to have an explicit responsibility for each other, but it shouldn't be forced.

I have been burgled, state was useless, insurance paid within 5 days - an excellent system of those choosing to share risk coming together.

Of course, we just all pay our share and that's it. no more taxes at all - they've worked for things, not sure why exchanging that money for something should incur a tax - they've paid their share as being a citizen.

it's not hard - there seems to be no real rationale why someone who decides to earn a certain amount compared to others should pay more or less than anyone else to live in a country.

I've already indicated things like the NHS are clearly a social insurance and that as long as everyone pays a common due, we share that burden.

It's for your parents to ensure you can reach your potential - that's their responsibility. You can always decide to make it for yourself, including taking out a loan, or alternatively maybe people likeminded will decide to offer scholarships?

I certainly don't think you are entitled to believe that strangers should be forced to put you through further education even if they have decided not to do so themselves. if you feel its a good investment, take a loan.

I certainly don't think you are entitled to believe that strangers should be forced to put you through further education even if they have decided not to do so themselves.

We wouldn’t have any healthcare on that rationale.

If you did it your way, would you work it out:

• The country needs £X from PAYE to be able to operate
• £X / the number of adults in the country is the amount everyone pays.

Would it not bother you that for some people that would mean not being able to afford food, heating ect, but others wouldn't even notice it?

I'd rather pay more tax than someone on the breadline having to go without food.

Absolutely, looks ideal - probably would charge the adults if they had children using additional services as well. No PAYE, you just need to pay your bill.

its your responsibility to afford your fair share. I suspect very quickly people would work, and the minimum wage would rise to meet the essentials.

And you can choose to make that choice - just setup a charity of likeminded people or an insurance scheme and you have exactly the solution. I'd also probably join if I met the criteria of the group. On the other hand, if you'd prefer to choose a different scheme or none at all, that's your choice.

insurance paid within 5 days - an excellent system of those choosing to share risk coming together.

What you've just described here, though, is the taxation system. A collective coming together. They aren't sharing risk in the way insurance does, but they are all paying in varying amounts based on the repository paying out.

Actually my calc is wrong because you're saying no VAT or NI as well so all that gets added up and divided per person.

The minimum wage would have to go up by a ridiculous amount to make that affordable. It wouldn't happen and would just push people into abject poverty.

There is a reason most countries have banded tax.

I wasn't clear. If a parent is caring full-time for a chronically ill or disabled child, then they can't work. Should they starve? Or rely on charity?

I absolutely get your point about severely disabled people who should receive enough benefits to allow them to live a comfortable life, but I know at least 3 healthy young men who can’t be bothered to work as they receive benefits. At least 1 of them can afford to run a car also (my nephew)!
I do think that too many British people have lost that work ethic so hope that does not get worse under Labour.

@Flowery57 i know of many such examples too. It’s like we need a re-set at societal level. Maybe if we don’t see the PM taking the piss (Partygate, lying, corruption, cronyism etc), that will help. But I think the damage done by the Tories will take years to mend. Of course we are responsible as individuals but you maybe feel less so when you see others “getting away with it”. And there’s been plenty of that.

I let the parent decide.

But given that if they don't pay in enough prior benefits would be charity, the same choice appears to be on the table. As I indicated previously, if the parent doesn't provide and there isn't family or charity to help the parent isn't meeting their obligations.

Given so many people are keen to support others, there should be no issue in doing so, but it would be voluntary and there would be no entitlement, and in discretionary systems there would be much more scrutiny.

I've never known tax as voluntary, but as long as that's the case we agree. The quantum will be based on risk - nothing to do with your income, and you can choose to cover more risk by sharing more risk - you choose.

I think a bit of balance needed.

The CP were handed one of the worst hands in history!

1. Prolonged recession 2008-2013 (much of this coincided with a Labour gov), did not bounce back from until around 2016
2. European debt crisis (Gordon Brown was disastrous selling off gold reserves, flooding the commodity market then having to buy back at huge losses, billions; same again with buying Euros, costing billions, lost our reserves and credit rating!)
3. Brexit - Cameron as PM was a remainer and urged people to vote for Remain (tbh it was old Farage that campaigned for Brexit calling Cameron's hand and forcing a referendum in which people were stupid enough to vote Brexit)
4. Covid (once in a century)
5. Russia/Ukraine
6. Israel/Palestine

They've had some awful leaders since Cameron (didn't mind him, blamed for Brexit but Farage and co really forced his hand there) and don't think he thought anyone would be foolish enough to vote for Brexit.

I’ve just seen this on another thread. Identical post, different name. Just saying.

Ugh. Bot watch. Tede off @lbwagain

Not sure why it's different names. I have NC in the past but not for a few weeks. I've posted it because I get so fed up with the polarisation on this topic and how people are so partisan and not willing to be a bit more nuanced when 'analysing' the previous 14 years!

Nope nope nope . not a bot, just a middle aged woman who has voted for various parties in the past. More Lib Dem than Tory and liked Blair but don't like the idea of a huge majority - not good for democracy.

Also think most people now are voting based on discontent rather than content.

Don’t mind that - your view is more important than copying a list of points. Otherwise you aren’t more than a bot