Labour hate people like me

[Meadowtrees]

I feel sick at the thought of how much our lives are going to change.

This is not a thread to bash or criticise people nervous about Labour. It’s a place for those of us who are feeling very anxious to have a bit of space - it’s not something we are ‘allowed’ to say in public without being called ‘scum’ ‘selfish tories’ or similar. I’m not particularly linked to any party and not sure how to vote, I may spoil my ballot.

Labour have made it very clear that they intend to make us poorer and our lives harder.
I’m a woman - Labour intend to remove women’s rights
I’m rural - Labour aren’t interested in rural areas
I work in a private school - enough said
I have teens - I expect Labour to put vat on uni fees
We both work full time and have slogged our guts out to now be in a position where we have a comfortable (but not high) income - I expect to be taxed more heavily.
We have elderly parents - I expect the cost of care and inheritance tax to increase.

Maybe it’s selfish but we’re screwed and I don’t expect that what we lose will be put to efficient or good use. It feels like we will be punished for having worked hard and being ambitious.

The messaging in the OP’s posts tie in with that from a Conservative Party leaflet posted through my door.

Funny that.

Oh well. There are a lot Conservatives bot shills that seem to be having tactical heart attacks right now. You’ve got to assume that they won’t have a job shortly.

Who are the Super Rich who are fleeing? Is it the likes of James Dyson who campaigned for Brexit then took outfit to Singapore? The remaining Oligarchs maybe Putin himself still has a London residence. Or is it the Royal Family ? I mean surely after the charitable status removal seeing them dropping headfirst into a pit must be next on the agenda.
I mean the last Government had so much respect for the Royal Family Johnson became the only PM in 70 years to bare face lie to The Queen there was then the paries on the eve of her husband's funeral. But that's all ok.

Very rich or ‘super rich’ can work from anywhere in the world with new technology and will.

There is a difference between 'working' somewhere and 'paying tax' somewhere. I cam work from anywhere in the world, but I pay tax in the UK. Everyone pays tax somewhere, it may not be in the UK though.

Lopine - I haven’t had any leaflets delivered, no one has bothered as we are too rural. Or are you saying I wrote the leaflets? It’s getting really tedious being repeatedly accused of working for the tories as soon as anyone questions Labour’s policies, even when I’ve said I’m not impressed with the tories either.

A few probably will but many likely not to. The organisation Tax Justice propose a 1-2% levy to assets above the £10 million addressed this issue and claimed:

“If wealth taxes are increased, won’t rich people just move abroad?

Studies have shown that most wealth holders who live in the UK have ties here, want to be here, and want to contribute as citizens. Tax levels are a minor factor in their decision to relocate in comparison to factors such as family and social ties, schooling, and overall economic stability. Our tax proposals would only lead to a very small amount payable relative to the net worth of people’s assets.

For example, the 1-2% tax would only apply to assets above the £10 million threshold. It would not tax assets below the £10 million threshold. This would mean someone with £11 million in assets would only pay £10,000 - £20,000 a year, because they would only be taxed on their assets between £10 - £11 million, not on anything below £10 million.

Existing evidence on reform of the non-dom status showed that increasing taxes on the super-rich led to a minimal number of individuals leaving the UK. Reforms in 2017, which restricted access to the non-dom regime, led to just 2% of those who had been in the UK for fewer than 3 years leaving, the number was significantly lower for those with longer- term ties to the UK.”

I note the very rich have seen their wealth soar since 2010 whilst wages have stagnated and are not currently paying their fair share as pay lower tax rates on their assets than the income tax rates on wages.

YANBU

I can never understand why redistribution within a generation is seen as fair - every citizen should pay exactly the same pounds in tax for essentials such as defence. People should be able to use their own abilities to benefit themselves and their families. I can never understand the entitlement of people to believe some people should go out to work for half the year to earn nothing but to support them, rather than they should do it themselves

I get that we can all decide to socialise some aspects such as the nhs as long as everyone pays approx the same and hence is cheaper for the vast majority, but out of work benefits need to go back to being a safety net for no more than a year and all other benefits abolished - let people choose how to spend their own hard earned cash, and expect to earn if they want a roof and to eat.

if some want to share their hard work they can, but nobody should be forced to give to charity they don't believe in.

if you want to earn more - just do the same as someone else who does, but stop taking off those who do apply themselves more effectively and instead make yourself more effective and earn more for you and your family.

We need to celebrate people who achieve the most, I like most will not reach anywhere near the top - but we need to stop asking people to bear more on their shoulders and look to everyone to justify why they are not paying their own way. People should have a lifestyle in proportion to what they earn for their families, not assume they are entitled to the efforts of others.

Sharing is great - but only if everyone shares equally. Most people believe if you buy a round, then the next of equal value is reciprocated.

As I wrote in my comment above, the very rich have seen their wealth soar since 2010 as the financial markets (stocks and shares, government bonds) and housing which is where most of their money is invested in have all benefited v well from quantitative easing, govt borrowing etc. Meanwhile wages have stagnated during same period.

Also the very wealthy are not currently paying their fair share as they pay lower tax rates on income from their wealth (assets) than the income tax rates on wages.

and...?

So they risked their earnings by investing, and so made good choices. What has that got to do with anyone else?

Fair share is absolute amount - the very wealthy will be paying huge amounts, yet there is no apparent reason for this to be fair. Everyone should just get a fixed bill to pay, and services reduced if not paid.

Madness.

Not sure how they could do that as it’s fundamentally how the whole vat system works, if you are vat registered you charge vat on your income but can reclaim on your costs, they’d have to be a fundamental charge to the whole vat system to enable this not being the case. Not something I’ve heard mentioned before

What are we supposed to do with disabled people who are too disabled to work, let them starve after a year?

In the rare cases where there is no possibility of any work whatsoever, primary responsibility should be family and only as a last resort where someone cannot fufill their obligations as a citizen and there is no supporting charity available then there might be anti-destitution possibilities - but no actual entitlement.

Nothing takes away from the key point that rather that aiming to redistribute, people who apply themselves too achieve more should expect to have a much higher standard of living and those who don't shouldn't expect significant support from others by simply asking them to work own behalf of them.

@Turkey98 Just going along with your thought experiment - most of the welfare bill goes on pensioners. Should they get anything? What about people who work full time but still don't get enough to live at a reasonable standard? Should they get some kind of top up, or should employers be forced to pay more? You talked about essentials like defence - how about schooling, infrastructure (I'd rather pay more per year and have the potholes mended). Further and higher education? I'd like a skilled and educated population. I was a higher rate taxpayer, then my daughter became chronically ill and I had to take time.off work to care for her. Should I be entitled to any support? Should she?

Not a thought experiment, just back to basic principles of personal responsibility.

Pensioners should get a pension based on their payments into a scheme - there shouldn't be any benefit per se - you could choose a government run or privately run pension. The amount you put in and the choices you make are your choice.

if jobs don't deliver a decent standard (based on your personal belief - you may choose a lower standard and work less), change jobs or create your own business. If nobody does a job, salaries increase, if a job is worth more then do it on your own account. Never a top up, and no force to pay more. If you don't have the skills, that's for you to sort out - not other people to make up for it.

yes, road etc. should be included - core common infrastructure that most will use. Schools can be socialised, as everyone uses them, but it should be standard provision and people can take their 'voucher' elsewhere as well.

No, you can decide about your family and whether its worth investing in further education. Definitely no mandatory support from other families who will be making their own choices - but people may choose to offer you support if they feel passionately about it. But as a current higher rate tax payer, you may not need to pay to support other families from your efforts, and could concentrate on your own choices both regarding your own child and whether you wish to support charity.

@Turkey98 And if your child, like mine, becomes chronically ill, you should what? Ask the church? Neighbours? Savings really don't last long. Also, on further education, what if I'm a bright kid with a family that are either feckless or too poor to pay. Does that mean I shouldn't have the chance to reach my potential?

Should add, my DD (thank God and the NHS) is much better now and I was supported by my employer, but what it you have a a child with a permanent disability or chronic illness. Savings really don't last long.

Whoever is elected we will all pay more tax. Your tax burden is the highest now it has ever been but due to the mess the Tories have created it will increase for everyone. We don't even know yet the extent of the mess, so much is hidden.

We face huge issues as a country- far fewer people work or contribute to the pot, we have an aging population, our birth-rate has fallen, our NHS is fucked, education is collapsing. Health, adult social care and education are very costly - we have to pay for them one way or another and they have all been very damaged.

You are being ridiculous.

We pay the lowest state pension in Western Europe.

@LuluBlakey1 Totally agree. This stuff has to be paid for one way or the other, and it's cheaper and more efficient to do it at a national level rather than each individually trying to sort it out.

Not a thought experiment, just back to basic principles of personal responsibility.

Well @Turkey98 , as a high rate tax payer who has benefitted from a good education, hightly paid jobs and a whacking (unearned) inheritance, I see my personal responsibility as being to pay tax, and more of it if necessary. I am proud to pay. I realise I'm in a super fortunate position and can easily afford to. But I'm not alone. I've spoken to my children about this, and they believe I shouldn't be hoarding it all for them either.
I won't be leaving the UK if any party increases my tax. Take a look at Patriotic Millionaires UK and you'll find there's a lot of us who are proud to pay and want to invest in a stable and more equal country. It'll be better for all of us.

Your ideas are frankly nuts. Perhaps you'd like a return to Victorian workhouses for your undeserving poor?

Perhaps you'd like a return to Victorian workhouses for your undeserving poor?

Way too luxurious.