Labour can't win

[verdantverdure]

Unless absolutely SHEDLOADS of people who voted Conservative in 2019 vote Labour this time.

That's right, isn't it?

@BIossomtoes This would suggest there's still good options for U.K. students in the EU. It looks like it was written in 2022 so it may have changed and might again.
https://www.postgraduatestudentships.co.uk/advice/brexit-and-its-impact-on-masters-and-phd-study/12455

@GrantShappsOtherUserName yeah I know you didn't. In fact I thought he probably was working as there's plenty of work out there these days. Having grown up through the 70's and 80's with mass unemployment that really is depressing for young people. There's nothing new about worried youth. I see less of it now. There's lots more going to Uni, the ones that don't, all work. They drink and smoke less, they eat better and go to the gym.

GrantShappsOtherUserName
Clav you really do need to stop thread trawling

I can remember things I read last week even if you can't.

It's very clear to me that blossom was referring to a different YP.

No it's not - the anecdote is the same.

BIossomtoes
Maybe play the ball not the player?

Typical Labour hypocrisy - you made a personal comment about me on this thread last night. I only expressed amusement at the idea of your son being a 'young person' - you made a big deal out it.

There's working. And there's work that pays a fair and reasonable salary that means the same in real terms as it did in the 90s. There's the inexorable rise of unaffordability of property. There's the huge debts built up by student loans (which earlier millennials and Boomers did not have to face).

The job market for postgrads is very competitive. There are thread full of MNers commenting on how hard it is proving for their DCs to find good graduate jobs. If you mean there are plenty of low paid retail jobs and barista roles at Costa, then that is indeed true.

I thought we had moved on as a society from only thinking about mass unemployment as a sign of a low aspiration/low opportunity society.

It is true that this generation is the first generation who will be worse off than their own parents. You haven't appeared to acknowledge this.

You have set yourself up as a commentator on all youth invent. I am wondering what your background is that makes you such an apparent expert?

I have suggested you look at studies which say the exact opposite of what you claim. When I suggest it is not easy for every young person, you throw implied shade upon my DS.

Justcallmebebes has a Masters in Politics, you know.

But they know nothing about domestic politics as that is too boring, apparently.

I’ve just read that link. It’s full of ifs and maybes. It certainly doesn’t say what you seem to think it does.

Oh, and also, just to point out - as ever with MN we seem focused on middle class DCs.

There are far more children living in poverty now than at any point in the last 30 years. That is shameful.

Over 4 million children living in poverty. It’s a disgrace. We really shouldn’t tolerate this.

And they also can't distinguish between anecdote and data.

No point even trying to have a sensible conversation with someone like that. It's like arguing with a pigeon.

I have a long memory. I won't buy Dyson products because he lied to me 25 years ago. Similarly I won't vote Labour again after their dodgy dossier killing hundreds of thousands. As far as I am concerned that political party should have ceased to exist at that point but voters overlook all those deaths and still vote for them. Not me, other parties exist.

Not true.

@BrendaSmall

LOL #awkward. As a few posters have said, that was the CONSERVATIVES! Not Labour. In fact things did improve once Labour took over again in the late 1990s - for a while. Yeah Blair took us into an illegal war, and that finished him, but there were some good times with Labour until the credit crunch in 2008. And yep they left the country with no money.

As has been said, no Government ever seems to get it right, they just try their best in a bad situation. (Sometimes that is, when they're not lining their own pockets!) I do feel though, that Conservatives are more corrupt and grabby and greedy, and hate the poor and disabled more than Labour.

So I think, so as not to split the vote, I am going to vote for Labour. I come from a 'Labour til I die' type family of tradies and miners and factory workers, so it's in my blood anyway.

It is wrong to assume that Reform voters would autmatically flock to the Conservatives.

'Reform UK are standing candidates in nearly all constituencies, and the data shows that even if they were to stand down just 36% of their voters say they would switch to the Conservatives. Instead, 6% would vote Labour, the same proportion would go Lib Dem, 4% would switch to the Greens, and 12% to another party. Fully a quarter (26%) simply would not vote at this election in a scenario where Reform UK were not fielding a candidate for their seat.

Our data suggests that many Reform UK voters are not benign about the Tories – they are belligerent. Three quarters (74%) say they have an unfavourable opinion of the Conservatives with 41% being “very unfavourable”. This compares to just a fifth (22%) who are favourable to the Tories. These voters have a similar view of the Prime Minister, splitting 76% to 22% unfavourable towards Rishi Sunak.'

yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49762-general-election-2024-reform-uk-voters-are-not-benign-toward-the-tories-they-are-belligerent

See, I get the Dyson thing. He still owns the company, there's a continuity there.

I just struggle to get it with political parties. I don't still blame the lib Dems for the tuition fees, I doubt I'll blame the Tories of 2050 for state the country is in now. And I don't see how I could blame these labour politicians for the Iraq war.

Labour of today share a name, a colour and a logo with the party of 2000, of 1980, of 1960. But it's like triggers broom, if you replace every part of it, is it still the same broom?

I am hoping SOME Tory voters opt for Reform to split the vote, so Labour win. (Or LibDems...) (Or even a coalition between the two!)

The strongest argument I’ve seen by conservative posters about Labour is that they will increase taxes.

Except that falls down when people are willing to see taxes increase. My H and I are in the group of people Who earn a decent income and would be happy to see our taxes be more if that means that everyone sees an improvement in the NHS, education, justice, etc etc.

Labour are much more likely to change the tax boundaries so that those earning the least pay less and those of us earning more pay more. I absolutely support that. As do lots of people I know.

Many people out there accept that for decent services we have to pay, especially those of us with the capacity to contribute more. If the NHS functions I wouldn’t need health insurance. So that money can be taken straight away!

Also from that article

Labour has said he took the job because barristers may not withhold their services based on a client’s conduct, opinions or beliefs, and that he left it before any oral hearing to become director of public prosecutions. As DPP, he went on to prosecute “terrorists with links to Hizb ut-Tahrir and led the first ever prosecution of al-Qaida,” the party said.

Fucking hell. 😡

So by that logic you think Germany shouldn't exist because Hitler, yes?

For me, it doesn't matter why he took the job.

The fact is that in a civilised society, everyone should have access to justice and legal representation, and everyone should have the right to mount a legal challenge through the courts. The only way to ensure that is by supporting access to justice for everyone, even those we consider to be 'undesirable' or unworthy.

Rapists and murderers cannot be convicted with a fair trial, which requires a defence.

I remember when Gareth Peirce was looked down on for representing the Guildford Four. In many people's eyes, they were obviously guilty so why not just lock them up and throw away the key? Why should an appeal even be allowed? People campaigning on their behalf were spat at in the street.

Except they weren't guilty. And without legal representation the miscarriage of justice would never have been addressed.

And even if they had been guilty, they were still entitled to a thorough defence and an appeal based on the evidence, if the UK wants to consider itself a civilised society.

And yes, that includes people who have committed crimes in the past, but are now subject to some other aspect of the law (like the deportations). Everyone has a right to a defence, and appropriate protection under the law, regardless of what their history might be.

Anyone who condemns 'undesirable' people having access to legal representation in the courts is particularly hard of thinking, in my view. One day you might be the undesirable one, fighting for your right to be heard.

This is spot on!

A robust defence is about ensuring that the state proves its case, it’s not about helping criminals “get off”. It’s a key part of any well functioning criminal justice system.

Warrior queen?! 😂

In my view, aanyone who raises the "but when he was a lawyer he took [undesirable case]" argument instantly exposes themselves as either hard of thinking, and very ignorant about what is required to maintain a civilised society, or as someone who actually thinks that legal rights should be denied to those they disapprove of - which is simply a fascist view.

Same goes for the people who think that illegal deportation is just fine provided you deport people they disapprove of.

And if you think there is 0% chance that you will ever need to fight for your rights....well I bet the sub-postmasters thought that too. I am glad that, while they were being condemned and convicted as petty thieves, there were lawyers and accountants who were willing to take up their case and help them fight.

No, not fucking hell. Home Office had failed to follow the law or processes. It was an attempt to avoid another Windrush scandal.

We like to follow the rule of law in this country don't we?

Well of course people who didn't vote Labour last time need to vote for them this time for them to win. It's no good being like Corbyn and inspiring more votes but in the same places that would have voted for you and got you that seat anyway.

And I do hope it happens. Just seen Sunak on the BBC - what a horrible, rude, shouty, arrogant, aggressive, shameless, petulant little man he is. To never have to hear his voice again would be the biggest relief. He is loathsome, devoid of an ounce of humility, compassion or thoughtfulness. Can't wait for him to fuck off.