Are Labour just going to blame 14 years of Tory rule for next few years?

[Korner]

No I am not Tory HQ. Probably only voting due to women’s suffrage. Might spoil ballot - haven’t decided.

But aren’t Labour just going to spend the next 0-3 years blaming 14 years of the Tories? Literally what the Conservatives did when they got in?

Already sick of it

The question of proportional representation came up on R4 Any Questions last night. It was the question both the Labour and Conservative candidates strongly agreed on and their view was that it would be the end of accountability.

I'm not in favour of prisoners having the vote. They didn't respect the law and the rest of society so why should they get a vote on which policies may become law?

Well, Labour and the Tories would be opposed to PR, since having it would mean no more single Labour or Tory governments.

But PR is more democratic. Literally every vote counts under PR in a way that it does not under FPTP. There are only a few countries in the world which us FPTP in the way the UK does.

Political accountability would not change at all under PR, that is a strawman argument. Just as with FPTP, accountability comes at elections, when sitting governments are voted out and parties lose and gain votes based on their performance.

We'll have to disagree on prisoner votes - to my mind, the aim of prison is to rehabilitate people. The UK does this extremely badly. You appear to feel that prison is purely about punishment, hence maintaining a link with the society that prisoners will eventually have to rejoin is unimportant to you.

Don't put words in my mouth. I believe rehabilitation is vital. Learning new skills, restorative justice, reflection and maintaining family relationships etc. If the decision has been made they are not yet ready/entitled to be back moving freely in society then why should they be allowed to influence the direction of society? It's a temporary deprivation.

So you think that pretty much every country in Europe where prisoners are allowed to vote is making a huge mistake? Even though in general their recidivism rates are lower than ours? Oh well, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I’d have thought giving convicted criminals a stake in society would be a crucial element of rehabilitation.

Even though in general their recidivism rates are lower than ours? I believe there are many other elements of rehabilitation that carry far greater weight eg maintaining family relationships. Show evidence that getting the vote, once every few years, is the most significant factor, or even in the top three, in reducing recidivism rates and I could be swayed. However, it seems most EU countries remove the vote from at least some categories of prisoners so agree to disagree it is..

Is it possible that rehabilitation is about a whole series of small actions, rather than one big and effective action.
Being allowed to vote is a sure sign that one is still a valued member of society and ones opinion matters.

Don't stay at home.
Get out and vote properly.
Staying at home and not doing anything is exactly what fascists and the far right want.

Yes, of course they are. It’s what anyone would do.
The same thing happens in businesses when a new CEO takes over. They take the credit for everything that’s going well, but everything that’s going wrong is always blamed on the ancien regime.

I think you're misjudging this.

14 years after a Tory government got in we are worse off. They still blame Labour for not leaving enough money. Even though we had more back then.

And we all know if Labour get in on Friday 5th July the media will want to know by Monday 8th July why all the problems of the last 14 years haven't been solved.

I have to say, the opening post of this thread contains the weakest reason I've yet seen for not voting Labour (and there have been a few doozies). If you don't want to vote for them because you don't believe they will improve the administration of the country, then don't. But you know even if they don't get in they'll be moaning, so you won't be spared that regardless. Might just as well vote Conservative to prevent them moaning about whoever takes over from them. Or vote Reform because they keep saying every party except, obviously, themselves is doing everything all wrong, so make them the government and that will shut them up - eh? (Please don't do that.) It's what political parties do. Right now, in the middle of an election campaign, is absolutely the best time for it, too. Can you imagine a campaign having success by saying "the present government is pretty good actually, but please vote them out so we can have a turn anyway"?

What's the point of moaning about this when it hasn't happened yet?

If you read my earlier post I gave a number of examples of actions which I believe are invaluable in rehabilitation. I just not convinced the vote is one of them that should be open to all categories of prisoner. If you have broken the law why should your opinion of future policy be given equal weight? You didn't respect other people/community/society when you did whatever you did.

The punitive aspect of prison is in the deprivation of liberty. There is really no need to pile additional petty meanness on top of that.

Absolutely- it's what they all do. Win, and then spend the entire time blaming the inadequacies of the previous government as the reason why they won't and don't enact any of the promises they made, and using it as a get out of gaol free card, until they loose power, then rinse and repeat.

@SD1978 just like the Tories then?

only Labour have said sorting out the economy needs to happen first beyond changes other from those in the manifesto (which are costed)

the Tories blamed labour for the global banking crash - I think labour are allowed to hold them accountable for crashing the economy!

@ghostyslovesheets - yes. Hence why I didn't specify a party- it's what they all do/ use the previous political party as they get out of gaol free card when they can't deliver- it's not specific to Labor or Tories, it's both. We can't make anything better because the other party has made that impossible. Nothing meaningful changes, then we do it all again 8-12 years later.

@ghostyslovesheets- and in regards to catching the economy- absolutely NOT defending the Tories- but it's crashed world wide- I'm in Aus now and we are also equally as fucked/ maybe more so to be honest. You can blame them for a lot- I don't deny that- but a world global economy crisis- no. There handling of it, sure, but not the event itself.

If you get in debt do you expect to be out of it in a few months because you let your partner take control? Do you expect them to suddenly have enough trained experienced staff (doctors for example) knocking on the door on July 5 despite it taking years to train and the changes needed to attract them?

Tory PM Rishi Sunak is currently banging on about the debt left by the last Labour government. Even though the Tories massively increased our debt burden and he was complicit in and personally gained from the Banking crash of 2008.

But you're moaning about something that hasn't happened yet @Korner? Give your head a wobble.

The Tories will piss and moan about the post-election tax rises which they have set into motion.
Though to be fair Labour hasn't said they'll reverse them:

https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/press-releases/23-billion-of-post-election-tax-rises-are-hiding-in-plain-sight-amid-ongoing-tax-bombshell-rows/#:~:text=The%20biggest%20single%20tax%20rise,a%20further%20%C2%A32%20billion.

Grow up

No. But I would expect them to stop buying their mates all the rounds down the pub, stop buying flash new expensive and unreliable cars and actually start using that money sensibly to buy food, repair the house and start paying down the debt.

Some of it will depend on how the new taxes work out - eg the pledges to use tax funds for breakfast clubs or extra teachers

If they don’t work out then they’ll struggle to do as planned

There is one way to get a bump, via EU stuff but without clarity on that It’s hard to know either way

You do know what the Tories did when giving out contracts in COVID as just one example.