Nope to labour

[Mrsdeehoang]

I was considering voting for Labour, but their manifesto proposal to change the VAT on private education has made me reconsider. I'm not financially well-off, just about managing, and I took on two jobs to afford the fees for my son’s private grammar school. Despite our efforts, he couldn’t get a place in any of the five local state schools due to oversubscription, and our appeal was unsuccessful. We were instead assigned a school outside our area with a poor Ofsted report. Faced with this choice, I opted to work harder to provide him with a better education privately. The proposed VAT changes would make it even harder for families like mine to manage.

For me, Labour doesn’t seem to understand that not everyone who sends their children to private school is wealthy. I don’t like the Tories either, but I would rather vote for them than for Labour.

Where's the strawman?

So you have to be provided with statistics, but when you put out (nonsensical) statements everyone else has to look up Google? What a shock.

Some, (some), and again some, trans women are predators. Are you struggling to understand some? No one said ALL transwomen are predators. Of those transwomen in prison, half are in for sexual crimes btw.

Well said 👏

Quite. I've asked this many times and it appears most think one of two things:

1. the law is a signal of intent and will strengthen the "social contract" even if its not policed. To me this is effective decriminalisation from the outset and I can't see the point of spending the limited legislative time making laws that will never be enforced.
2. they haven't thought about it and not their problem, up to the government to sort it out if its The Will of The People. Nuff said on that one.

unfortunately, it'll be another 1000s posts of changing room/toilet debate again lets be real.
Would be refreshing to have a discussion in good faith from BOTH sides which doesn't result in being called TRA, Bigots, Handmaidens and so on... If we could actually have decent discussions without these points. Maybe we'd all be able to agree on something...

I think unfortunately it's gone past that into a debate where there are very noisy activists on both sides. It's always easier to defend a black and white position (whether that's TWAW or TWANW) so the activists end up shouting from their "end" and if you are anywhere in the middle ground its just off-putting to be shouted at and insulted.
It's a real shame as ultimately both women and trans people suffer as a result of the impossibility of a solutions focussed debate.

hard agree!

I believe TWAW and obviously understand there are situations where it should be based on your sex at birth. After all, with how insane waiting lists are on the NHS i'd be pretty pissed my Gynae treatments were pushed back because people who aren't affected by Gynae medical issues were being seen by the department instead....

I've even been told i'm 'extreme' for believing peoples partners shouldn't be allowed on maternity or post partum wards outside of visiting hours. Obviously no-one will agree 100% with everyone but we ALL need to be better at having discussions rather than arguments all the time.

I don't believe TWAW and have been called a transphobe in real life for this, yet on here I've repeatedly been called a TRA because I'm pro trans inclusion in situations other than ones that need to be single sex for safety and dignity. Go figure

I think most people are bored of the debate now and stay away from it. I certainly don't think its a voting issue apart from for a handful of people.

Totally.

The fact that most people think some compromises need to be made, but not others, and that this then gets shouted down by absolutists on both sides makes this a conversation that no one wants to get involved in.

The constant refrain about safety and representing the most vulnerable doesn't wash with me though. There are much bigger issues impacting millions.

"there is an underlying reason why many people have made this their hill to die on and it is not for the reasons that they claim. You know why? Because the day to day issues that impact those that they claim to advocate for are far larger, more dangerous and impact far many more lives than this one sole issue"

That is you putting your own narrative on things. YOU can't understand why this is the hill to die on for many of us, so you choose to make aspersions and ascribe motives to us that aren't ours. Because you cannot even beging to understand why, or even listen to us. So it is far easier to discredit someone that take the time to listen and try to understand. It's laziness on your part.

Gender Ideology affects every single aspect of society.
Health - and the ability to have single sex wards and single sex intimate care, Sport - the ability for fair competition and female encouragement, single sex spaces/prison safety - self explanatory,
Education - children being taught they can change their sex at 3 years old/teenage girls uncomfortable with puberty and their period - told they can take Puberty Blockers = avoid periods and breast growth, staying home from school when they have their period because of lack of proper female toilet facilities or not going to the toilet (risking UTI) and not changing tampon/pad for the entire day (flooding/TSI?),
Politics - lack female representation/female politicians attacked and given rape and death threats for doing their job and advocating for women to the extent female MPs have to pull out of the hustings. That would NEVER happen to any other group.
Work - women withholding fluids all day so they won't have to go to the toilet where a male colleague goes, risking UTI. Feeling unable to speak up re toilet/health facilities, and pronoun bullying. Leading to not returning to work -> lack of income, finances, bad economy as well as lack of workforce participation
Society - women like me too afraid to go swimming or participate in society due to lack of safe facilities. Equals a return to women staying at home and a form of 'Urinary Leash'.
I could go on and on and on.....and on.

There is not one...single aspect, NOT...ONE, that Gender Ideology doesn't impact women and girls rights.

So why wouldn't this be the hill any woman would die on?

I ask you, since womens health, education, taxes, and our participation in society is so very important, what could possibly be more important than this and WHY would any would not have this the hill they would die on?

Why wouldn't this be the hill any woman would die on?

Again, why wouldn't this be the hill any woman would die on?

We're on the same side, @Underthinker , did you mean that to me?

No that's the second time I've done that. I mean to reply to @Alwaystired94 and your name pops into my head. Sorry once again.

Where is your evidence that "98% of women don't have an opinion on the topic"? Or is that you just extrapolating that because women as a whole don't have it as a higher priority, that therefore equates to them not caring, @Alwaystired94 ?

If you had followed any social media or real life, you would know your assertion that men are more likely to be GC is absolutely false. From my experience on a wide variety of social media, internet fora and in real life, it runs 90% women, 10% men. Men are less likely to be GC (gender stereotypes benefit them, after all) than women. Of course, basic common sense tells one women are more likely to care about gender stereotypes therefore be Critical of Gender stereotypes, than men. You aren't using logic or critical thinking.

So you're saying you don't believe (despite extensive research and even academic commentary on the phenomenem) that Gender Ideology is real?

You are too far gone to reason with then, if you don't acknowledge reality.

It's hard when it seems like 90% of both sides are just out to argue. Who on earth is going to listen to ANYONE screaming abuse at them? No-one. So nothing changes because no matter what, both vocal sides are the minority.

Majority of people don't have a strong opinion one way or another. There are many GC people I've spoken to on here who i would never describe as a TERF' and ditto I've witnessed many an exchange from both sides where I've left it thinking 'neither of them made a valid point because all they wanted to do is scream'. While either side act awful and threatening, it makes their valid points look ridiculous and extreme.

Who benefits from us burning all of our energy arguing about this? Not women certainly.

Why are we arguing about whether wards should be single sex when right now, they cannot be because of underfunding and corruption? Obviously TW will never be patients on wards like Gynae/Maternity no-one is advocating for that. But safety is a massive issue, not just based on sex/gender and right now our healthcare is not safe.

" So it is far easier to discredit someone that take the time to listen and try to understand. It's laziness on your part."

I've listened, followed the thousands of threads.

It isn't about what you claim, it just isn't.

The rest of your points? How often and likely are all of the things that you list, you argue into extremes all the time.

"There is not one...singleaspect, NOT...ONE, that Gender Ideology doesn't impact women and girls rights."

But there are far many more important issues that impact them far more and on a far higher scale.

"Why wouldn'tthis be the hill any woman would die on?"

Because most can see that there is no absolutism involved and the way in which you frame your cases is extreme, they realise that there are far bigger issues, and look for ways to address them.

You do realise the issue for women is males in our spaces? Hence the emphasis on trans women. Not trans men.

The issue is males. Not 'trans people' per say, @CassieMaddox . The fact we don't care about trans men as they are no threat to us, should have clued you in on that.

@CassieMaddox
Quite. I've asked this many times and it appears most think one of two things:

I've answered it many times too. Perhaps not to you, but on this thread certainly.

My answer is your #1 in certain situations that are hard to police. But it would be policed anywhere where the service provider knows the sex of the service user. So all schools, hospitals, most workplaces, prisons, most membership gyms etc.

"The fact we don't care about trans men as they are no threat to us, should have clued you in on that."

But the fact that you speak about trans people in the way you do, and dismiss the issues that face them, means you denigrate transmen too.

@SoreAndTired1

Oh and the fact that you all get so angry about some of the inclusive language which is actually designed to include transmen (whom you believe are women), is indicative of what you think. You dismiss them and their reasons for being as they are in the same way that you do transwomen.

It also means you aren't that supportive of women, or you choose to believe TMAM because its convenient for you.

It also means you aren't that supportive of women, or you choose to believe TMAM because its convenient for you.

In a bloody nutshell 🥜

It IS a cult! The eminent Evolutionary Biologist, and Atheist, Richard Dawkins himself calls Gender Ideology (he refers to it like that, as do many learned academics) a cult. He says it's a cult and a form of a religion for atheists to claim.

What rock have you been under that you don't understand it is widely seen as a cult?

It eats up everything (womens rights, spaces, language etc) in it's wake. It changes logic, linguistics, it demands complete adherence or else it seeks to expel or get fired people who don't adhere. It gets dissenters fired and labelled. Even detransitioners are thrown out and seen as 'the enemy'. Even ones that jsut think they made a mistake personally, but still support trans. All detransitioners, no matter their reason, are seen as the enemy. And trans activists have hounded them, doxxed them, etc. For no reason other than the person decided they made a mistake for themselves (but still support trans for others). It is a cult that DEMANDS 100% adherence. There was a meme that I need to find on my laptop that compares cults and GI. And shows how absolute the cult-like behaviour, group-think and attitudes GI is and has.

First of all, do you really believe because a social media account has a 'female' name and photo it is run by a woman? So social media is a very bad way to gauge a true demographic split.
Again, we are different people with presumably different lifestyles, so what i have seen with my own eyes is that men on the whole seem to be less accepting of transwomen than women are. Based on my experiences, you have different real life experiences? Awesome, that's great.

"98% of women don't have an opinion on the topic as it's not a massive issue in comparison to the ones effecting the vast majority of us"
As many have said before, how can many have a strong opinion on trans rights vs women's rights (as some believe it is) when they are in poverty? using food banks? almost dying with sub standard maternity care? not able to see a doctor for health issues?

This is why we say IN COMPARISON. Immediate threat vs potential threat.

(gender stereotypes benefit them, after all)
I'd have to say it would depend on which stereotype. Considering the vitriol some have about Gay men especially.

There you go again, thinking a male who says he is a trans women means he stops being male, therefore, hey presto! is no longer a risk to women! ANY male, that includes transwomen (who sexually offend 6 times greater than so-called 'c*s' men, are a threat to women. Why do you assume because a man claims to be a transwoman, that means he's no longer a threat? Do you not use critical thinking?

www.fairplayforwomen.com/criminality

You are working hard to make having single sex toilets and changing rooms seem like some outlandish extreme position.

What you call absolutist, I'd just call consistent. You think some males are women for the purposes of toilets and changing rooms but not for women's refuges or prisons. It just doesn't make sense.

My wife's friend had a guy with a boner leer at her in a gym changing room. The rules say, and the staff said at the time, he was within his rights to be there and it was his word against hers. I think the rules are wrong. I don't think that makes me an absolutist.

Again with the story of the nurses, I think the least discriminatory solution to that clash of rights is that the males who don't want to change in the male changing room petition for a third space or get used to changing with the males. I don't think that makes me an absolutist.