Nope to labour

[Mrsdeehoang]

I was considering voting for Labour, but their manifesto proposal to change the VAT on private education has made me reconsider. I'm not financially well-off, just about managing, and I took on two jobs to afford the fees for my son’s private grammar school. Despite our efforts, he couldn’t get a place in any of the five local state schools due to oversubscription, and our appeal was unsuccessful. We were instead assigned a school outside our area with a poor Ofsted report. Faced with this choice, I opted to work harder to provide him with a better education privately. The proposed VAT changes would make it even harder for families like mine to manage.

For me, Labour doesn’t seem to understand that not everyone who sends their children to private school is wealthy. I don’t like the Tories either, but I would rather vote for them than for Labour.

@Meetingofminds

and what does the legislation say?

Nice analogy to something I didn't say 🙄

They have the same policy because both will continue to recognise "legal women" in all situations except ones where EA exemptions apply. They are both committed to single sex spaces for women. Labour will do this through GRA reform. The Tories will do this through EA reform.

Legal semantics, very tedious to anyone not in the guts of the debate.

Look it up. I don’t need to spoon feed you.

@Meetingofminds

So, it probably doesn't say what you want it to in its entirety then

:)

@CassieMaddox
Nice analogy to something I didn't say 🙄
I know, I was pleased with it. And you went on to say pretty much exactly that so thanks for that too.

They are both committed to single sex spaces for women. Labour will do this through GRA reform. The Tories will do this through EA reform.
How does the Labour GRA reform plan protect single sex spaces? As far as I can see it does the opposite by making change of legal sex easier.
Their "commitment to single sex spaces" seems to mean not removing the currently inadequate EA protections altogether - wow great thanks.

Lazy.

"How does the Labour GRA reform plan protect single sex spaces?"

Can I ask how legislation will work effectively to exclude trans women from all female spaces?

Hospital wards - yup, can see how this will work, as a patient needs to go through an administrative process to be admitted to a ward.

But women's toilets and changing rooms? How would it work in a material sense?

GCs obviously very unhappy with status quo and feel like current situation is oppressive & dangerous for women, so I assume they'd like a policy which would be policed?

Otherwise it just end up like fly tipping, and various dog laws which are widely flouted because they're not enforced.

Yes some places like hospitals very easily policed as you point out, but also others like toilets and changing rooms in schools and workplaces.

An imperfectly policed single sex space is better than a mixed sex space.

how many workplaces have changing rooms? as in a big open communal space?

☺️

Some do. The recent story of the nurse in the changing rooms repeatedly asked "Are you not getting changed yet" by a male colleague springs to mind...

NHS challenged by women forced to share changing room with transwoman | Mumsnet

why on earth would they do big communal spaces? privacy should still matter even if the other users have the same chromosomes as you surely?

i understand in schools they can't really have kids locking themselves in cubicles and doing god knows what but why on earth should adults have to do this?! weird.

I don't know the reasoning behind the planning decisions for hospital changing facilities. I guess communal facilities in general are more space efficient, and when that layout become the standard for gyms etc, the designers didn't envision men would start being allowed to use the women's rooms.

i mean, TW have been using women's changing rooms and facilities for decades so that's doubtful.

it will only be based on space/cost efficiency.

At swimming pools, its a cubicle for privacy reasons and aren't usually separated by sex (at least none i've ever encountered) which is the ideal for adults. there is no benefit on a human level for communal facilities, only £££ ones.

"An imperfectly policed single sex space is better than a mixed sex space."

Presumably all the women's changing rooms/toilets I've ever used in my entire 58 years are female spaces (judged by the signs on the door) that presumably have occasionally been used by trans women. These are the public facilities we have now, and given the state of public and business finances I don't think anyone's going to be engaging on a mass restructuring of them.

What do people want to change?

Materially?

Signs on the doors?

CCTV monitoring who's going into women's facilities?

You want to see trans women who have always used these facilities now arrested and prosecuted?

@Alwaystired94
There are pros and cons to each.
Changing village type layouts are more vulnerable to voyeurism, but are often more convenient for parents with opposite sex children.
But the point is there are thousands of communal changing rooms up and down the country. They're not going to disappear overnight even if everyone agreed they were outdated. So having single sex rules around them would make sense.

I don't think anyone should be arrested.

I think if a woman in the same situation as the nurse in the story linked above goes to the employer (or gym owner) and says there are males in the female changing rooms, the service provider should remove the male and not accuse the woman of being narrow minded as happens now...

"They did not receive a written response but say there was an 'impromptu meeting' at which an HR manager told the ward manager the female nurses 'need to compromise'.
The HR manager told them to 'be more inclusive', 'broaden their mindset' and 'be educated and attend training', according to a second complaint letter sent by the nurses in April."

but again, how does communal style benefit parents?
right now dad has option of either take his daughter into mens changing room
or take her to womens? as not everywhere has 'family' changing rooms.

If people claim its 'traumatic' for children to see a TW in a changing room for women then surely its the same for daughters going into men's with their dads? which is why communal shouldn't be the standard.

@Alwaystired94

"There are pros and cons to each.
Changing village type layouts are more vulnerable to voyeurism, but are often more convenient for parents with opposite sex children.
But the point is there are thousands of communal changing rooms up and down the country. They're not going to disappear overnight even if everyone agreed they were outdated. So having single sex rules around them would make sense."

I'm not asking 'should we have more communal and single sex changing areas'.

I'm asking how you stop trans women using the female facilities they've perhaps used for decades.

These facilities already have a sign on the door indicating they're for women.

The Daily Mail (lol) example of a nurse who identified as transgender using women's facilities in the hospital and behaving in what is described in the article as a predatory and intimidating way could be dealt with by employers under their existing occupational regulations around sexual harassment perhaps. But this is an identifiable person using the facilities on a regular basis

I'm asking what you want to change in relation to the vast majority of public facilities that women are using in the UK.

.

in reality, what should have been offered is alternative spaces for all who need/desire it. As many are happy to share with TW. Some may feel uncomfortable due to trauma like one of the ladies in that article, which is valid and no-one should be in a vulnerable position. But vulnerable isn't only women around transwomen.

What about women who have been SA'd by another woman?

Women who want modesty around all?
Women with different medical needs who don't want those exposed?
What about Children who have been abused by a maternal figure?

Which is why i hate the TW Changing room/Toilets discussion, it's so often trotted out on MN and because of this all the women's rights/trans valid discussion points don't get the discussion they need and deserve. But while we keep having 1000s of threads about changing rooms/toilets the rest doesn't get attention. Between this and chest feeding it's just bloody ridiculous to try and have a good faith discussion from either side.

what do i want to change?
non-communal for a start.

We should be able to effectively deal with predatory behavior whoever displays it. Whether that person is 'biologically male' or 'biologically female'. I don't want to be in a vulnerable position around ANY predator personally. The last time I was SA'd it was by a woman, does my trauma matter less as a man wasn't responsible for that incident?

If someone is acting predatory, they should be held to account and receive swift justice, but sadly we all know that doesn't happen at all because rape/SA has been decriminalized in all by name.

@izimbra
Your reply all seems a bit confused.

I know you weren't asking about having more communal single sex changing rooms, but my reply was clearly to another poster who did make that point.

In the nurse story, no that incident couldn't really have been dealt with by "existing occupational regulations". The male in the female changing rooms could then just keep perving on the women but make his creepy behaviour slightly less obvious. The real solution is for him to move into the male changing rooms.

I'm asking what you want to change in relation to the vast majority of public facilities that women are using in the UK.
The rules. Most people follow rules.
In the places where there is a lot of oversight such as schools, workplaces etc, then that normalises the behaviour and expectation that males of any gender identity are absolutely fine using male spaces. In some remote public toilets people may break the rules, there's not a lot I or anyone can do about that.

Ahh, again classifying trans people as predators.

No one ever gave me the statistics on risks of this.

@Aladdinzane Is that aimed at me? Yes some trans males are predators. Just like any other subsection of males.

I guess you agree with those Nurse's employers that they should be re-educated to allow the creepy male to watch them get changed then?

@Underthinker

Strawmanning hard again I see.