Nope to labour

[Mrsdeehoang]

I was considering voting for Labour, but their manifesto proposal to change the VAT on private education has made me reconsider. I'm not financially well-off, just about managing, and I took on two jobs to afford the fees for my son’s private grammar school. Despite our efforts, he couldn’t get a place in any of the five local state schools due to oversubscription, and our appeal was unsuccessful. We were instead assigned a school outside our area with a poor Ofsted report. Faced with this choice, I opted to work harder to provide him with a better education privately. The proposed VAT changes would make it even harder for families like mine to manage.

For me, Labour doesn’t seem to understand that not everyone who sends their children to private school is wealthy. I don’t like the Tories either, but I would rather vote for them than for Labour.

@ActivePeony

I don't recall the Cass report discussing over all suicide risk in trans people at all? It was focused on the treatment of children? It did state that trans adults are less likely to commit suicide too?

And yet again a thread gets completely taken over by the same old shit.
Which I know I shouldn't contribute to but FFS it's ridiculous.
Anyways back to the OP - I'll be voting Labour so yes to Labour for me, as I want more confidence that the NHS will be looked after and I have at least a chance of getting an appointment if I'm ill (Practically impossible to get one at the mo)
I want new mums to feel supported more like I did when there was lots of Sure Start Centres with coffee mornings and health visitors etc, they seem to have all gone nowadays 😥)

Are children not people now? This is the group most at risk from the suicide narrative that has grown up around puberty blockers and hormones. She looked at this and found it to be a false narrative. Surely you know this?

Anyway I am done with this.

“Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good you are, the bird is going to shit on the board and strut around like it won anyway.”
― Shannon L. Alder

Use google, there's lots.

Just read one that was in the Canadian medical journal and the University of Ottowa that said the risk of suicide was 7.6 times higher in teens, there's another from the American Academy of Paediatrics. Another from the University of Melbourne, one from Denmark. I mean, I could go on but this kind of thing is repeated, so it is clear that there can be no definitive.

The issue with the not very compelling evidence that you have presented is that it looks at one or two studies when there are pages and pages of studies available on google that show the opposite.

You've also incorrectly applied what was shown in the Cass report.

@ActivePeony

Running away because you've lost and you know it :)

"Are children not people now"

Yes but only presenting the information for children does not deal with the suicide rate in the population grouping as a whole. As it is, you've only presented a limited amount of information and there is a lot of other data which says differently.

You also used the Cass Report as an appeal to authority rather than actually for what it was about/meant.

Same, it was entertaining before my nightshift.
Only on TRA land you have an interaction that goes:

Me: all trans people deserve respect and dignity.
TRA: you hate trans people you big bigot. You've been unmasked by EVERYONE because I SAY SO.

I mean what can you do 😂

@AccidentallyWesAnderson

Imagine being so deluded that you can think that the points that you have made give off these values:

"Me: all trans people deserve respect and dignity."

You were exposed by your own comments.

Morally and intellectually bankrupt, I suppose that's why you were easy to radicalise.

'Running away because you've lost and you know it'. 🤣 From the person offering absolutely nothing, despite there being 'loads on Google'?

Have a cup of tea @Aladdinzane

Comments that you failed to read and/or understand. That again, is a you problem.

"From the person offering absolutely nothing"

Aww @AccidentallyWesAnderson you really are struggling aren't you. I mean first you link to a biased website that uses two studies conducted in the UK to say that there is no evidence of the suicide risk when there is a global body of evidence from much more respected institutions that says there is. Then you invoke the Cass report incorrectly.

I mean, its looking bad isn't it. You are SO biased about this that you might not actually think that using websites that are clearly there to present an agenda might not be the best sources to use?

Your arguments about saftey, language, and protecting the most vulnerable have been completely disproven too.

It hasn't gone well for any of you GCs tonight.

And you wonder why no one listens, and why this isn't a major issue for everyone else.

Maybe it's that the people that are pushing the agenda come across as a bit, well, bigoted and not very empathetic ? The way you talk about transpeople in the same way that racists talk about people of colour?

Hahaha, "failed to understand"

Nothing you have written has been hard to understand. In fact its all been extremely clear.

It hasn't made your case stronger, in fact the opposite.

The same story plays out on the Fem boards though.

person: I respect trans rights
GC: why do you HATE WOMEN

Totally. Except for the fact that the poster who said "all trans people deserve respect and dignity." Also makes derogatory remarks about them

It is funny to watch.

@AccidentallyWesAnderson

"I don't need to explain anything. Most decent people know that men should stay out of women's changing rooms where six year olds are, let alone walk about and linger with tight verging on see through trunks on.

Do you advocate this? Do you need to speak to someone?"

Are you against cisgender men wearing speedos in the presence of children? Because those are tight and no larger than a pair of bikini bottoms. In France it's mandatory for men to wear them in public swimming pools instead of loose trunks. Are you really trying to make a case that French children are all traumatised by seeing men in speedos?

'Verging on' see through = not see through.

Or are you saying they were actually see through?

Did your friend spend a lot of time looking at the trans woman's genital area?

"Do you advocate this? Do you need to speak to someone?"

Is this a sly accusation that I'm perverted? You get this a lot in GC content - the constant sexualising of trans women, framing gender dysphoria as a sexual perversion, accusations of paedophilia, and by association also levelled at those of us who challenge transphobia.

Really very little different from what you get from homophobes.

All from someone who claims to respect transgender people. 🤨

@izimbra @Aladdinzane

Transwomen are male, female spaces are for female people. Trying to shut women (or occasionally men like me) up by calling them bigots may have worked a few years ago but no longer.

What I've found interesting in the run up to the GE on the MN threads that have mentioned gender is that there seem to have been 2 main camps...

1) Gender ideology is bullshit so I'm not voting for any party that pushes it.

2) Gender ideology is bullshit but there are more important issues for me to vote on at this time.

I've seen very few posters taking your view that wanting actually single sex spaces is bigotry, which I've found encouraging

@Underthinker

No one is trying to shut people up. The poster who was called a bigot displayed bigoted views.

Women's spaces are for women, and very occasionally with someone who is trans. The fact that most women will never have to share a space, and the majority of those that will and have already done so, will not know about it due to the essentially private nature of those spaces.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact that there should be some female spaces, rape crisis meetings, women only refuges etc.

I've been here a long time (name changed recently and I have changed a few times over the years) and there have been a lot of GC people who have backed the tories because "they know what a woman is" now and in the past.

BTW calling it "gender ideology" , undermines your point, it yet again means that you don't believe people who are trans and what they say about what it's like to live with it.

*No one is trying to shut people up. The poster who was called a bigot displayed bigoted views.

Women's spaces are for women, and very occasionally with someone who is trans.*

Yes you are. Standard TRA tactic.

Living in the real world isn't bigotry. You can't just redefine meanings to suit your nonsense.

No they aren't.

@Aladdinzane
The fact that most women will never have to share a space,
This seems a poor argument, allowing men in women's spaces is either justified or it isn't. The fact you want to downplay the number of women who will be affected gives away that you can see it's inherently unjust.
There are only a tiny number of serial killers but I wouldn't give them special privileges or access to places that other people can't go.

I don't think anyone disagrees with the fact that there should be some female spaces, rape crisis meetings, women only refuges etc.
Yes plenty of people do disagree with that, because they say that TWAW literally. The fact you don't, to me means that you know TW are not really women.

BTW calling it "gender ideology" , undermines your point, it yet again means that you don't believe people who are trans and what they say about what it's like to live with it.
I believe many people who are trans feel distress about their sex (but not all). I don't believe that means I need to treat them as that sex or believe what they believe. Just like lots of people believe in God but I don't need to pretend to believe in god myself when I'm around them.

@Underthinker

"There are only a tiny number of serial killers but I wouldn't give them special privileges or access to places that other people can't go."

You're making an analogy between trans women and serial killers?

For anyone who doesn't understand why I say the attitude and stance of transphobes on the inclusion of trans women in women only spaces is analogous to the far right's argument that the existence of Asian grooming gangs in the UK is a solid rationale for banning all immigration from Muslim majority countries...

When you say that you “decided to work harder “ how did you do that? What job do you have that enabled you to work harder? For most people they work hard but get paid the same. For example you can work hard at a supermarket but you won’t get paid more per hour. You can take extra hours but then what about the kids?

@izimbra
You're making an analogy between trans women and serial killers?
Yes. But of course an analogy draws on a specific similarity between 2 things, in this case being small in number. Not that these things are alike in every way. If you think "life is like a box of chocolates" means that taking a box of chocolates is the same as taking someone's life then that's a you problem.

For anyone who doesn't understand why I say the attitude and stance of transphobes on the inclusion of trans women in women only spaces is analogous to the far right's argument that the existence of Asian grooming gangs in the UK is a solid rationale for banning all immigration from Muslim majority countries...
Shame for such a clunky sentence to peter out without a point. What was going to come after the ellipsis?

"I believe many people who are trans feel distress about their sex (but not all). I don't believe that means I need to treat them as that sex or believe what they believe. Just like lots of people believe in God but I don't need to pretend to believe in god myself when I'm around them."

Poor conflation as well as undermining yourself with the "(but not all)" point. Essentially you are still saying that you think people are making it up for other reasons.