Nope to labour

[Mrsdeehoang]

I was considering voting for Labour, but their manifesto proposal to change the VAT on private education has made me reconsider. I'm not financially well-off, just about managing, and I took on two jobs to afford the fees for my son’s private grammar school. Despite our efforts, he couldn’t get a place in any of the five local state schools due to oversubscription, and our appeal was unsuccessful. We were instead assigned a school outside our area with a poor Ofsted report. Faced with this choice, I opted to work harder to provide him with a better education privately. The proposed VAT changes would make it even harder for families like mine to manage.

For me, Labour doesn’t seem to understand that not everyone who sends their children to private school is wealthy. I don’t like the Tories either, but I would rather vote for them than for Labour.

I'm not sure why you keep on about how caring about women's rights means that you are unable to advocate for anyone or anything else? And that you keep saying with conviction that posters aren't doing this. You don't know. Or is this just your mindset and ability?

@AccidentallyWesAnderson

You are here and on another thread which has become totally about trans issues, like many on MN you think this is a major issue.

It really isn't. In fact the data on what has happened in prisons rather shows that its almost a non-issue. But again and again you and others have kept raising that and made it out to be a big one.

It isn't.

If you really cared about the safety of women and girls and improving their lives all the efforts would be applied to the other issues in health, education, employment and society that have a larger impact on millions than this one issue that you have chosen.

As I said, its EXACTLY because it requires nothing of you that you choose it, advocating for people on an issue that requires no agency of you is both easy, and a way to cover up any other underlying reasons that you have been drawn to this issue.

Am I going mad?! Didn’t your post have loads of blank space that took ages to scroll through, and then an ‘A’?

@Aladdinzane "and a way to cover up any other underlying reasons that you have been drawn to this issue."

I'm fascinated by the way some people have glommed on to this issue. The almost religious fervour they attach to it. It's a bit like the response we saw to BREXIT - the upsurge in brain dead nationalism. The spurious, hypothetical arguments about 'having our own laws' and 'being tyrannised by Brussels'. The symbolism being out of all proportion to the material reality. If you ask people about their actual experience of contact with transgender individuals, most of them have never knowingly had any contact with one. At all. Throughout their entire adult lives. And not only have they themselves never been impacted by trans inclusion, they don't know anyone else who has. But they still feel oppressed by the idea of trans inclusion - oppressed to the point of being willing to disenfranchise themselves to signal their anger and feelings of oppression. It's incredibly important to them despite the fact that if they stopped paying attention to trans issues on social media, they wouldn't even know trans people actually exist.

You are just repeating yourself and not taking on board anything that I've, or anyone else who has the same opinion, has said. It's not just about prisons, nor 'trans issues'. It was an issue, see Isla Bryson before it became a bigger issue.

It's about women's rights. This, for me and many many other women, feel this is a very important issue. Women's hard fought for rights underpins so many other things in life, well most things actually, that are important. You keep banging on with 'it's really not important' like it's a fact. It's just your opinion, nothing more nothing less. You can have your opinion, but you don't get to present anything as fact. I'm well aware there are people like you who to me, just don't seem to get it, that's fine, that's my opinion.

If you cared about the welfare and safety of women and girls you would know that men being able to access the same spaces and 'be' legally women massively undermines this. I'd say you are the one who doesn't give a fuck and quite frankly with your wilful obtuseness are probably a man. The alternative is too depressing to contemplate.

But they still feel oppressed by the idea of trans inclusion - oppressed to the point of being willing to disenfranchise themselves to signal their anger and feelings of oppression

*male inclusion. Into spaces where they shouldn't be.

"I can accept people can have different opinions why can't you?!
Then proceed with "d say you are the one who doesn't give a fuck and quite frankly with your wilful obtuseness are probably a man

Talk about contradicting yourself lol
Same old "must be a man!" shite as usual if you disagree, it's so pathetic 🙄😁

@AccidentallyWesAnderson

"It's about women's rights. "

It isn't really is it? Just how have trans issues actually effected women's rights? Have they been taken away? Who is proposing to do so?

Saying its about women's rights is a bit of a cover though isn't it, protecting something that isn't being taken away, again, doesn't actually require any change or agency from you. Just hot air on the internet.

"You keep banging on with 'it's really not important' like it's a fact"

It isn't. As I said go ask 100 random woman in the street right now and ask them what their top 5 issues about this election are, trans issues won't be in the top 5, and not even in the top 10 for most. There are so many other issues that directly impact woman in a disproportionately worse way.

"If you cared about the welfare and safety of women and girls you would know that men being able to access the same spaces and 'be' legally women massively undermines this."

But how often does this occur? As @izimbra pointed out the likelihood of coming into contact with a trans person, never mind having to share a space with them is extremely low. As well as the fact that in that making it about "safety" means that you are inferring that trans people are really just faking it in order to gain access to these spaces to attack women, you can deny it, but that's basically what you are saying. I do remember ( because I am old) similar things said about gay people back in the day.

" I'd say you are the one who doesn't give a fuck and quite frankly with your wilful obtuseness are probably a man."

Ahh the old MN favoured Ad hom, a poster challenges you and makes points you struggle to rebut? Call them a man.

You know what I think the major issues regarding girls and women's safety are? The number of welfare refuges that have either had to close or turn people away due to funding cuts from the government. The fact that women are by far the largest users of foodbanks, significantly more likely to be in poor temporary accommodation, that cuts in benefits have made day to day living far more precarious for millions of women. That education cuts mean that mothers on low incomes are significantly less likely to have their children supported adequately at school, that mental health budget cuts have meant those that suffer from illnesses are wait longer for treatment, and are significantly more likely to end up in prison. That women are more likely to have longer waits for NHS treatment and more likely to suffer adverse impacts of those long waits than men. That cuts to social service budgets mean women who desperately need help do not get it.

The list goes on and there are SO many more things that are more important than this one issue that impact millions of women daily.

But you focus on this one, the only one that actually requires no agency from you.

People can disagree, it's the not taking onboard any counterpoints and posting the same thing over and over despite these points being addressed.

To be fair you seem to be struggling with the difference between disagreement with not allowing people to have opinions on the other thread so forgive me if I don't take anything you say too seriously. You also pop up on all the threads where women want to talk about single sex spaces so your agenda has been clear for a while.

And yes, I do find it really depressing that women can throw other women under the bus. 'Pathetic' in fact.

You know what I think the major issues regarding girls and women's safety are? The number of welfare refuges that have either had to close or turn people away due to funding cuts from the government. The fact that women are by far the largest users of foodbanks, significantly more likely to be in poor temporary accommodation, that cuts in benefits have made day to day living far more precarious for millions of women. That education cuts mean that mothers on low incomes are significantly less likely to have their children supported adequately at school, that mental health budget cuts have meant those that suffer from illnesses are wait longer for treatment, and are significantly more likely to end up in prison. That women are more likely to have longer waits for NHS treatment and more likely to suffer adverse impacts of those long waits than men. That cuts to social service budgets mean women who desperately need help do not get it

Yes all this I personally find far more of a concern and seems to get overlooked.

So just the same as basically all your other posts then.

I'd never vote Labour

The hypocrisy is off the scale

Why?

@GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight

It's hilarious.

This group of poster address nothing that is impacting women in the UK on far greater scale and far greater danger is addressed. But millions of words in tens of thousands of threads about trans issues.

What's hilarious, is that various points have been addressed, that it's possible to care about women's issues and do something about it, and care about women's rights to same sex spaces, care, those that include prisons, sports, intimate care etc etc ALL AT THE SAME TIME, and that it's not trans issues it's women's rights issues - and yet still, you don't appear to be taking any of that onboard, and presenting anything you say as fact. Ask 100 women blah blah. That's now a you problem.

No this is a you problem.

You keep saying that its possible to care, but I haven't seen repeated threads on any of those topics starting weekly on MN in the last 5 years, you know what topic I have seen? Which topic regularly takes over any discussion of any other issues? Huge numbers of posters are entirely sick of how it dominates this site.

"ITS WOMENS RIGHTS ISSUES" I asked you tell me how women's rights are being diminished, but you can't, mainly because it will mainly just turn out to be that weird obsession about toilets, again.

You are even over on the thread about Labour not listening

No one is listening to you.

Most people that will think logically about it will think, yes women should have access to their own spaces, especially those to do with welfare and health, and yes there have been some bad decisions made in the past. BUT, for the vast, vast majority of people, and in reality, it is such a minor issue that impacts very small numbers of people that the fact that it has become such a big issue here is baffling.

"ITS WOMENS RIGHTS ISSUES" I asked you tell me how women's rights are being diminished, but you can't, mainly because it will mainly just turn out to be that weird obsession about toilets, again.

Women's rights to sex based spaces without the presence of men (I've listed a few already), the right for language not to be erased, to have intimate care provided by a same sex person without being labelled a bigot. To be honest I could go on all day but you aren't taking anything on board anyway. Being a woman underpins everything woman have fought for. Not a costume for someone to put on nor cosplay. To deal with any other issue this needs to be defined first. Again, I've said all this.

Lots do listen, lots are sick of you trying to shut down women just because you or your inner circle haven't personally haven't been negatively impacted by self ID. Selfishness of the highest order beside you lack critical thinking skills.

I luckily haven't been raped, been in prison, had a transwomen take my place on a sports team or needed intimate care that I may need if incapacitated in the future, doesn't mean that I don't realise how much self ID can make these instances worse for the women who have.

And don't bleat on to me about prisons, the only reason that has been stopped is because of Isla Bryson and the women whom nobody is listening to put their heads above the parapet and said NO. Imagine if they didn't. You would be saying 'oh it's only a small number, it doesn't matter'.

You don't get to speak for all women, just as I don't, but from the women I've been speaking to most haven't realised the issue as they've been fortunate enough not to be negatively impacted. Unlike my friend who was the same as you until her young daughter was faced with a transwomen doing performative woman-ing in tight trunks in a swimming pool changing room, if you get my drift.

Others DO share the same views, they are just scared in case they are called a transphobe or cancelled by the hard of thinking.

Plenty are listening.

And I'll post this again -

'And back to voting Labour, or anyone who pushes anyone to suspend reality, it comes down to this which I've stolen from another poster -

It goes far beyond women’s rights

If a party can lie that humans can change sex - can deny material reality -why would anyone trust them on anything else? Somehow this particular gargantuan lie is seen as harmless.

If Labour were claiming the earth would flat, no one would vote for them.

It’s so weird'

@AccidentallyWesAnderson AccidentallyWesAnderson

"that it's possible to care about women's issues and do something about it, and care about women's rights to same sex spaces"

But you're not caring about both at the same time. It's clear that you're prioritising a totally fringe issue which statistically can never materially affect more than a minuscule number of women, above the serious issues that are affecting the lives and the health of millions of women - namely access to healthcare, to affordable and secure housing and to access to the criminal justice system - problems which evidence suggests are literally shortening the lives of the poorest women in the UK. If you weren't prioritising anti-trans activism you'd be prioritising getting the Conservatives out, and contributing to Labour having a big enough majority to start to address the damage 14 years of Conservative policy has inflicted on the lives of all of us.

And you're prioritising transgender issues because it's become a hobby horse for you - I suspect largely as a result of you being radicalised by online content. I think this is why it's so incredible important to gender criticals to dehumanise trans women at every turn - to refer to them in demeaning ways; to frame them all as predators and as mentally ill. You seek out unflattering pictures and stories of criminal behaviour involving trans women, and share them over and over again online. You do this in EXACTLY the same way that racists and xenophobes do with pictures and stories about grooming gangs. Your aim is to drum up outrage against this group. You can't deal with the reality that the vast majority of women have never even met a transgender woman, let alone had to knowingly share a female space with one. So you need to make it this massive symbolic feminist issue - transwomen aren't just a very small and marginalised group of people trying to quietly go about their lives in the way that makes them happy, just like you. To you they're a symbol of overwhelming male oppression everywhere, just like racists and xenophobes have obsessively shared grooming gang content to the point can't stop themselves seeing all Asian Muslim men as evil predators. It's textbook online radicalisation.

And again - to ask you a reasonable question - what has been your actual real life experience of being oppressed by the presence or behaviour of a trans woman? You're dodging answering this question because I suspect it makes you uncomfortable to acknowledge that this is a group of people you've never come into contact with in any capacity outside of social media.

And again - to ask you a reasonable question - what has been your actual real life experience of being oppressed by the presence or behaviour of a trans woman?

Do I need to have one? Or am I able to recognise how self ID can negatively impact women, especially vulnerable ones? Have I not already addressed that?

Since you asked though. I've had a male sex offender stand in front of me and insist he's a woman. I've had to record his horrific crimes as being committed by a female, thus skewing statistics all because his feelings and delusion apparently matter more than reality, and I've had to forcible collude in that delusion too. There's more to that story but I can't be arsed.
I felt very oppressed. Because of self ID. Won't be doing that again though, job on the line or not.

And before you come at me with 'it's just one instance! It doesn't reflect all trans women! I don't care. It dismantles safeguarding, a concept you and the other poster don't seem to understand.

He probably wasn't even delusional. Just abusing self ID. Because that has never and would never happen 🙄.

👏👏

You going to answer this @GoodAfternoonGoodEveningAndGoodnight or you just going to sea lion other posters?

@AccidentallyWesAnderson

"Women's rights to sex based spaces without the presence of men (I've listed a few already), the right for language not to be erased, to have intimate care provided by a same sex person without being labelled a bigot."

Women do have the right to sex based spaces without the presence of men, but in some cases for the sake of ease trans women are allowed to use the same bathrooms/ changing rooms. Due to the fact that transwomen make an extremely low percentage of the population, then it is unlikely that 99% of women will ever have to do this.

Language is not being erased, in almost every case of language being changed it is not applied across the board nor is it mandatory. It does however attract a lot of attention.

Women can ask for same sex care, and do so all the time without being labelled a bigot.

Have there been issues when some council or medical provider has got things wrong to do with trans issues? Yes. But they aren't common and don't pose a risk to the vast majority of people. Almost every time this happens there is a change in policy following it.

This: " Being a woman underpins everything woman have fought for. Not a costume for someone to put on nor cosplay."

Undermines you more than you could possibly imagine. What it means is that you think people who are transgender are lying, that they do this for fun or for some type of enjoyment? Or are you implying that they do so for neferious reasons?

And there it is, finally exposed, your prejudices against trans people are open for all to see.

You don't really care about rights, or safety, or the vulnerable. They are just a cover for your bigotry.

Oh and "Critical thinking"? You clearly can't use it, your arguments have been demolished here.