If you're an undecided voter, what are the issues that are stopping you from deciding?

[tomatoesatbreakfast]

As an 'undecided voter', I was watching the Sky News interviews last night and felt myself warming more toward KS. When he started talking honestly about the possible impact on his kids...he suddenly seemed really human, a dad who wanted to pursue this opportunity but wanted to protect his children from the worst of it. However, I'm still undecided.

My politics are usually centre/middle and over the years I've voted Tory and Labour...basically whichever party I felt most aligned with my values.

All I know for sure is that I don't want more of the same and while I am definitely warming to Labour (as well as my local candidate who seems nice) I'm not keen on some others within the party.

I worry that by voting in the seemingly nice people, that it's a door opened to something I can't get on board with. You could equally say the same of the Tories though!!

So I'm wondering if there's any other 'undecided voters' out there (from any side of politics) and what are the issues/policies that are preventing you from being able to make a decision?

Why haven't poverty rates reduced in the last 14 years of right wing government then? It makes me wonder if your analysis is flawed

Sounded like you were not voting Labour and none of the other parties have committed to any reduction in VAWG as far as I'm aware so it seemed a fair assumption

There's no party standing in my constituency that I'd vote for as it goes.

They’ve repeatedly said there’s a distinction between biological women and trans women. You just don’t want to hear it. I give up.

Yes, no shit Sherlock.

What matters is what they do with that knowledge. If their position is that there is a difference between women and trans women but we all share the same gender identity whether women agree or not, and that is the basis on which we regulate access to single sex spaces and sports, what use is that knowledge?

Absolutely not what they’ve said and I think you know it I’m not bothering replying any more. I’m bored with saying it. I’m GC and I’ve maintained steadfastly that it’s not transphobia and nobody wants trans people not to exist. I think you do though. Have a good evening.

@CassieMaddox

"Why haven't poverty rates reduced in the last 14 years of right wing government then? It makes me wonder if your analysis is flawed"

Because the economy has been shagged by the 2008 financial crisis, Brexit, Covid, Ukraine crisis and Liz Truss trying to re write basic economic theory.

Also because the Conservative have not really done anything to reduce reliance on the state which is a deep seated mindset that will take a generation and a lot of pain to change.

Reliance on the state? What like all the working households who still need UC and food banks? Pretty sure it’s businesses relying on the state to keep their employees from starving to death instead of paying them properly.

It is the RF relying on the state and the mega rich avoiding taxes too - instead of putting money in the system they would rather pay accountants to find the loopholes

This is a deep seated mindset that will take LOTS of generations and a lot of pain (for the reguar people) to maybe change

I started reading the thread to get inspired as I am on the fence and to be honest the way this thread has deteriorated into a slagging match has completely demotivated me.

Its like we can't have a civil debate without everyone getting offended and reacting

Who is offended? There’s some robust debate, for sure, and some acceptance that people are too far apart on some issues to ever agree, but that’s politics 🤷‍♀️

@cardibach

"Reliance on the state? What like all the working households who still need UC and food banks? Pretty sure it’s businesses relying on the state to keep their employees from starving to death instead of paying them properly."

State intervention does create a moral hazard in all aspects of society. For example renewable energy initially got very generous subsidies and squealed when they were reduced arguing it would stop investment but it didn't. The investment banks in the financial crisis were banking on state intervention and support when they got in trouble a d received it. They were happy to keep the upside but expected Government support on the downside. And it is the same for individuals.

To take an extreme example in Victorian times there was no social welfare. So if you got sick, were in poverty, homeless or old then you just died.

This is clearly not acceptable in a modern wealthy civilised society where social welfare exists to stop this happening. The moral hazard is that individuals become reliant on such state intervention. There is an expectation that the state has an obligation to step in and help them regardless of their personal decisions.

Examples of which include people hiking on mountains in flip flops and t shirts and relying on mountain rescue when it goes horribly wrong. Or in the financial crisis certain over leveraged home owners expecting and receiving Government support when they could no longer afford their mortgages. This being particularly interesting because such home owners would expect to keep the upside if their house increased in value but expected state intervention when its value decreased and the mortgage becoming unserviceable.

Similarly there are people who use universal credit as a safety net whilst they try to improve their own situation. But equally there are those that become reliant on it abdicating personal responsibility for improving their own situation whilst always asking that the Government should do more to help them.

Well, for one thing mountain rescue is volunteers, not ‘the state’ so maybe have a proper think.

You think I want trans people not to exist?

Based on what, exactly?

Ok. One more. Based on you fixating on Labour allowing self ID while ignoring that they have clearly said a self IDed trans woman is not a biological woman.

@cardibach

"Well, for one thing mountain rescue is volunteers, not ‘the state’ so maybe have a proper think"

OK granted and replace mountain rescue with the Coastguard. But the principle is the same.

Many of the coastguard are also volunteers…
people don’t, on the whole, depend on the state - except employers who rely on it to top up the wages so their workers can afford to eat.

In other news, the Pope is not a protestant.

What does it matter if they say a trans woman is not a biological woman if the outcome is that we still can't have our own rape crisis groups and they still want to put male rapists in women's prisons?

But. They. Have. Said. The. Opposite.
They’ve said biology is sometimes supreme. You just don’t want to hear it and you focus on self ID. Sorry, but there’s only one conclusion to be made.

@cardibach

"Many of the coastguard are also volunteers…"

Nah the coastguard are definitely part of the state:

www.gov.uk/government/organisations/maritime-and-coastguard-agency/about#:~:text=The%20Maritime%20and%20Coastguard%20Agency,service%20for%20the%20United%20Kingdom.

You are confusing them with the RNLI.

However back on track, you are misinformed if you think that there are not significant numbers who have become dependent on welfare and who couldn't or wouldn't want to take on a job. And in many cases quite rationally so where the state support would pay them more than the employment.

I agree that employers also become dependent on social welfare expecting the Government to fund the difference from their low wages to what people actually need to survive. Unions used to help stop this but over extended their role in the 1970s into politics and have never really came back.

Undecided. Unable to vote conservative due to the terrible damage I feel they've caused to the public sector and I feel they've made awful economic mistakes. Unable to vote labour due to the private school VAT stuff - we don't send our children to private school but my husband works for a small one and it would ultimately be likely he would lose his job, as the school would definitely be put in a difficult financial position.
I may end up voting lib dem but it feels a bit pointless.

I am also concerned by 'the boats'. I'm not anti immigration but was shocked to read that last Tuesday 800+ were making the journey over in just a day. That's not sustainable or OK on a number of levels.

Yeah, you’re right about 5he coastguard. My mistake, though I’d sort of expect the state to provide this sort of service, tbh.
. If it’s so great, why don’t more people give up and rely on benefits?
I don’t think you really understand what unions do.

In what situations have they said biology is supreme?

Well their manifesto says they'll continue to support the EAs single sex exceptions but as Bridget Phillipson let slip this morning, what they actually mean is single sex plus anyone with a GRC.

I think that's finally decided it for me. Every time I think Labour have just about said enough to win my vote they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Exactly this. They still think they can pull the wool over our eyes which means they've learned nothing.