Why are private school parents punished when they remove a financial burden from the taxpayer?

[FishPhoods]

My DC do not go to private school, if I could afford it I would.

However - this policy makes no sense to me. I'm a TA. The school I work in has huge class sizes and is overstretched.

Starmer is saying that the VAT he proposes to add to private school fees will be channelled into the state education system. However we use the facilities of the local private school (swimming pool, sports fields) two days per week for no charge. If they lose their charitable status we lose access to that.

Also any money gained from VAT will potentially be outweighed by more pupils joining from the local private - or pupils who would have potentially gone but now won't. It costs the taxpayer roughly £8k per year to educate a child in the state system - we won't gain anything like that from VAT to cover the "new" pupils we acquire from the private system.

The way I see it if the rich can afford to or choose to pay for their children's education it's one less burden on the taxpayer. And making schools more expensive just makes them more elitist surely? Financially I just don't see how this makes any sense - is it just a populist thing as people generally feel aggrieved that some have the option of private education when some don't, so it's a way to punish them?

Check their charity commission reports. They make a loss most years

Sorry, but it is true. Overwhelmingly the kids they select are richer than most.
Grammar school tests select pupils from wealthier backgrounds
The Education Policy Institute (EPI) considered the likely impact of expensive 11-plus test tuition, and the problem of an attainment gap for disadvantaged pupils at age 11. The EPI concluded that test tuition is likely to boost the chances of pupils whose families can afford it, and grammar schools are a poor policy choice for improving outcomes for the poorest pupils. Read more HERE.

Totally agree with this. Also it will make the gap even larger - hardworking families like ours who scrimp and save to send kids to private school won't be able to afford it and it will make no difference to the super rich. Private schools really will be for the super elite rich because any the rest of us will be priced out. Also 50 percent of the kids at my kids' private school have special educational needs - parents scrimping to send them to private school with smaller classes- good luck to state schools dealing with influx of kids with additional needs. Ridiculous.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow universities are independent bodies, FFS is this what everyone thinks blimey we've a way to go

You know people pay fees to go to university right

Even if true, that doesn't answer the question though. Why don't the countries that do have Independent schools tax them? And why does EU law forbid it?

You assume what they want is the money. The asset they are after is the people.

having parents who care about education involved in the local school forces schools to be better. Having children in classrooms with students from families where education is prioritized helps other students learn.

does this help the students who leave their schools where their needs were presumably being met? Absolutely not. The people pushing these policies will argue they won’t be harmed by moving. The argument is that having motivated parents is what really makes the difference and these students can learn anywhere.

i personally think this kind of policy is awful. As a highly motivated parent, my job isn’t to have my child be ok, my job is to help my child excel. I don’t want her to be one of a few children setting the example. I want her in a classroom where standards are uniformly high.

we have been lucky enough to find this in a state school, but we are ready to switch to private if that changes. We already have the school picked out.

That and the trans issue - both things that the majority of the population don’t give a shit about.

The point is that once you start taxing one form of education, it’s a matter of time before the floodgates are opened. Universities charge tuition fees. They are not the same as state schools. They have had fees applied where before there were none, then fees were increased dramatically. How no one can see that adding VAT is the next step is beyond me.
Private school VAT is looking unlikely to actually raise much. It’s is purely a vehicle to get the public to accept adding tax to education, before moving on to the uni tuition fees.
I do not think it’s morally right to tax any education. Most countries think the same.

Who do you think it would pay any profit to?

So Eton isn’t making a profit?🤔

I bet.

Well it's a charity so, no? Who would receive the profit? It has no private owners, no shareholders? It may have a surplus on its accounts in some years, which will then be used to either fund capital projects or go into its endowment which will fund bursaries.

Part of the problem with this debate is the fundamental lack of understanding about how private schools actually operate.

However, as an aside, 99% of private schools are not the Etons, Harrows and Winchesters. They're just pretty normal schools that people pay to go to, many of which were already at risk of collapsing even before the VAT issue.

Totally agree with this!
Also most private school teachers I know are working in private schools as they can't bear to work in the state sector anymore- they won't go back to work in state schools- no way!

Totally agree with @Labtastic

It’s such a childish envy filled policy, with an added drop of communism vibe.

No choice for schools ever.
No aspirations.

Everyone knows this is nothing to do with funding the state sector, but everything to do with getting one over on the ghastly rich people.

The other thing you won't believe is that entry to Eton is actually 'means blind'. But that fact won't align with your dogma either, so don't let it trouble you.

What are Eton’s entry criteria?

Eton made a loss in 2022

People still don't understand the economics of opting out yet still paying in. People think schools with not for profit status are somehow making profits, in a highly regulated sector.

Most people seem to think that the very existence of private schools is somehow the reason mainstream education is shite and teaching is one of the worst most undervalued jobs and it's getting worse

Well it isn't, it's the fault of the people in charge of fucking about with the curriculum, slashing budgets and applying ridiculous targets, the bloody department for education

I give up

Politics sucks

This makes me realise I need to get a job at Eton - they have 32 members of staff earning over 150k! At my very much more minor public school, the head is on 140k,the two deputies are on 60k, and the rest of us are on slightly less than we'd get for the same role in a state school.

This plan is counterproductive, and will serve to limit social mobility. Private school becomes only for elite mega rich, who won't even feel the draught.

Agree with everything you said. The amount of people clapping and cheering for this extra blatant attack on privately educated children and families versus the amount of people who actually do use the state system but would not be willing to pay anything extra themselves to make it better is such an astonishing contrast.

Schools are funded according to "bums on seats" though. So a class with 30 chairs needs 1 teacher whether there are 20 children or 30 children. If there are 20 children they get 2/3 the amount of £ than if there are 30 children.

Tutors probably don't earn enough to fall into VAT. PTAs are often registered as Charities - they still have to pay VAT on their purchases.

Private schools also have to pay VAT on purchases, Currently they can't claim it back, but they will be able to soon! AND on big capital projects going back a number of years - straight out of the treasury coffers. Good plan Labour!

You're assuming that your experience of private schools happens in most areas. It very much does not.

Can you even begin to imagine the VAT on the really big schools capital spending? How much is eg Eton going to be taking back from the state in reclaimed VAT?

Are you joking? Teachers are leaving the state sector in droves do you really think that teachers who have already chosen not to work in the state sector are going to somehow choose to work in the state sector when state sector teachers are not even willing to work there anymore?

But many private schools are not making a profit either - as charities everything has to be reinvested back into the school.