Why are private school parents punished when they remove a financial burden from the taxpayer?

[FishPhoods]

My DC do not go to private school, if I could afford it I would.

However - this policy makes no sense to me. I'm a TA. The school I work in has huge class sizes and is overstretched.

Starmer is saying that the VAT he proposes to add to private school fees will be channelled into the state education system. However we use the facilities of the local private school (swimming pool, sports fields) two days per week for no charge. If they lose their charitable status we lose access to that.

Also any money gained from VAT will potentially be outweighed by more pupils joining from the local private - or pupils who would have potentially gone but now won't. It costs the taxpayer roughly £8k per year to educate a child in the state system - we won't gain anything like that from VAT to cover the "new" pupils we acquire from the private system.

The way I see it if the rich can afford to or choose to pay for their children's education it's one less burden on the taxpayer. And making schools more expensive just makes them more elitist surely? Financially I just don't see how this makes any sense - is it just a populist thing as people generally feel aggrieved that some have the option of private education when some don't, so it's a way to punish them?

If it's a great policy, why does no other country do it, and the EU forbid it?

Missed my appointment- rubbish!! If schools close it is by no means certain that there will be a job in the right subject area / level where the teacher lives, especially in rural areas. Private schools aren’t evenly distributed across the country.

It’s not a punishment. That’s like saying you are punished by the VAT on a pair of winter boots when all you are trying to do is very piously save the NHS from having to treat you for frostbite. The average household is already paying £6100 a year in VAT. You are not being singled out as a special group to be punished anymore than anyone else who spends a lot of money on stuff. If you spend £20k on a car you aren’t being punished for trying to not wear out the seats on the bus.

Heavens, can we have a special board for people to post about Vat on school fees? It honestly feels like it’s every other thread at the moment, all full of the same stuff.

You know you don't have to read them?

Nope. Hard disagree. Many fled the state system and would rather do another job than go back there.

@JustPleachy - interesting - I am not sure how easy this would be given that much is unregulated - but I guess this is the logical progression.

Let's start with the schools though since they offer comprehensive rather than targeted privilege boosting.

But they aren’t the same. They are still state education. There are no private universities.

You are wanting the rule on private education applied to state education where there are no alternatives.

It’s a bloody stupid policy that as usual will hit the ‘poorest’ private school students. The rich elite won’t care, it’ll be the people that have worked bloody hard having come from very little who can only just afford the private school who lose out. Their kids will then have to go to the local comp which is already over subscribed. How does that help anybody?

Some people live on the breadline to send their kids to private school to avoid the local comp where their child is likely to get stabbed.

Class sizes at the local comp are already huge and teachers stretched to the max….

Some students are genuinely gifted and need the private school environment….some have other special needs that are catered for better at a private school.

@bravefox because we live in capitalist countries where buying things we want is the modus operandi of society.

It's never going to happen. Sadly.

By the way I think all selective schools of any sort should go. Apart from state run specialist ones for SEND students.

Ps I can’t afford to send my kids to private school but I can still see how stupid a policy it is

Yes this.

Most private schools are opting out of the Teacher Pension Scheme. So teachers are leaving the private schools.

This really is far from the truth. My dtwins go to two different super selective grammars. In order for me to afford tuition so they stood a chance I had to work 7 days a week for an entire year. It nearly broke me but I did it. Every child should have a a good education not just those with money. I am angry that this was our only choice for them to get a decent education.

Some are - some are sucking up leaving the TPS and staying for the better conditions.

Some people live on the breadline to send their kids to private school to avoid the local comp where their child is likely to get stabbed

The majority of schools are not like this.

No because the money you pay goes into your education, it doesn't go into making a profit for anyone because it isn't a business. There's no profit but only loss, but even if there was, it'd go back into educational support and subsidising students. So in that scenario you'd pay less.

Fees were increased because the government didn't want to subsidise 100% anymore, and transferred some of the cost to the students. Then they capped fees at 9k and now we are making a loss. It wasn't "greedy universities wanting to turn around a profit" cos the set up simply isn't made that way. This isn't the USA.

I don't understand how private schools are businesses, though. The ones I've known have had no shareholders, no CEO, and certainly don't run at a profit. Maybe the richest, oldest public schools do?

I think maybe we need to reconsider a whole load of "charities" who havea large number of generously paid staff, and who are raking in millions a year (oxfam and rspca, amongst others)

Private schools won’t all close due ti VAT being added - this is nonsense. If people didn’t pull their dcs out of private schools on mass when gas and electricity bills went up by £200-500 a month for most people, then it’s probably safe to say the majority of parents sending their dcs to private schools have enough of a financial buffer to cope with what isn’t a massive amount of money compared to what they are already prepared to pay.

What might fuck over the private schools is significant improvement in state education. If what you are getting for your £15-30k a year isn’t all that much better than you can get for free, more parents will take the free option and pay to top up with tutoring and extra curricular activities.

if state schooling improves, more teachers will happily stay in state (most private school staff start in state then move), private schools have been able to recruit good staff based on not having to deal with much SEN or behavioural issues- if they can’t woo staff with a significant difference in the kids/situation, they’ll need to do it with money.

No because the money you pay goes into your education, it doesn't go into making a profit for anyone because it isn't a business. There's no profit but only loss, but even if there was, it'd go back into educational support and subsidising students.

You've just described private schools operating as a charity. No one is making a profit from them - any profit has to be ploughed back into the school. Many, in fact are making losses.

Most of the eu countries don't have the private school system and have very few schools where going to one is an oddity. In fact in countries like Greece, the reputation is such that the dumb ones go to private so they buy a diploma. And they are indeed businesses.

I completely agree with you, OP, and have often thought the same.

I don't really like the idea of private schools, personally; and I would never send my child to one, even if we were rich (unless it was genuinely independently recommended as beneficial for provision of needs for SEN or disability).

However, it seems absolutely mad when people have paid (through their taxes) for the right to use something expensive, but instead opt to pay a second time and leave that resource available for somebody else to use - and are then punished for doing so by being taxed again on them sorting themselves out independently. I think the same about private health care.

If you'd agreed with friends for you all to share the costs of a grand buffet, and then one said she wouldn't make it, but promptly transferred (significantly more than) her pre-agreed split of the costs and told you all to tuck in and enjoy her share of the food in her absence... you'd have to be absolutely bonkers to consider trying to 'punish' her for that and make her pay even more.

My only strict caveat would be that politicians and other people in positions of similar power and influence would simply not be allowed to send their children private, or use BUPA, full stop - purely because they are charged with working towards the provision of high quality state education and healthcare for everybody, and being able to sidestep it themselves gives them a clear incentive not to bother doing their actual job. But a successful footballer, actor or pop singer? Go on right ahead.

What better conditions?

Being at beck and call all the time. Evenings and weekends? Parents holding you responsible for absolutely everything because they pay.

I worked in the state system for 25 years, l remember 2 people going to work in private schools. And one was retired and left after a term because she was fed up of parents.

So Eton isn’t making a profit?🤔

I bet.

Sorry I don't follow. Are you saying Private education is a luxury, and capitalist countries don't tax luxury items?