Tonight's TV debate Sunak v Starmer - any predictions?

[CallingOccupantsOfInterplanetaryCraft]

Anyone up for a watch thread? Maybe even debate bingo. I know I know, don't threaten me with a good time. (Bingo suggestions: natural party of business, Labour has no plan, end the chaos, Rayner will take over, assorted references to Starmer's time as DPP probably blaming for Jimmy Saville again, inflation is down etc etc.)

At this point I seriously doubt anything like this will remotely change the game Nick Clegg style. I read somewhere the only way Sunak could come out of this ahead in the polls is if Starmer pulled off a mask scooby-doo style to reveal he's Jeremy Corbyn, which admittedly would be great telly.

I'm so fed up with the endless rhetoric but will definitely watch later anyway.

^ this 100%

I do wish people would stick to the actual facts. It’s mostly guesswork and parroting their own echo chamber.

I can’t think Starmer will be making it a priority to really expand our global interests in Asia and growing economies. If Labour get in we will have another lost decade to deal with. Five years of failure, followed by five years of the conservatives cleaning up the mess. At some point we have learn from history and address our self sabotage patterns.

We can see Starmer is going to be a terrible PM, even his own supporters think so.

There is tumbleweed and uncertainty instead of energy and dynamism from Labour.

Why on earth would we take the risk? There is far too much riding on it this time.

They could increase the personal allowance for everyone, not just pensioners. There is so much conflict between generations, this idea will just make that worse and for what will amount to pennies a week for most. People who will benefit from the full increase will be people who have a much higher income than just their state pension.

Just to reassure you about my voting habits, I have been a floating voter for most of my life, I've voted Tory, Labour and Liberal until the last 12 to 14 years when I haven't felt able to support the Tory party. My husband on the other hand was a died in the wool Tory, never voted anything else and never would - until 2019 when he finally admitted he'd had enough and I can't imagine him ever voting Tory again.

Taxing pensioners is not a cool move.

What about millionaire pensioners with an income of £100k a year? Should they be exempt when a working adult on a fraction of their income is having to pay?

What about me when I was working and drawing a pension for over 5 years, should I have been exempt from tax because I was a pensioner?

Treating us differently isn’t either. We’re despised enough as it is.

We are always told immigration boasts GDP as it fills job vacancies and hence increases tax take and general spend?

Are you saying this isn't true?

Importing people will always boost GDP, but a lot of people would argue that it is a poor measure of QOL and therefore the emphasis on it should be less. GDP/PPP is better because it actually relates more to QOL.

Re analysis, no I don't believe anything I read. Because nearly all of it is politically motivated and I believe a lot of it is impossible to calculate given the huge modifying factors involved like covid and the Ukraine war/energy crisis. The only thing you can really do is look at the bottom line figures and draw conclusions from those. The figures themselves tell you the story. The UK hasn't performed significantly better or worse than anywhere else of comparable size in Europe since Brexit. End of story. Any made up stuff that we should have actually done better or worse is just that. Made up stuff.

I’m just shocked anyone would actually say, I’m going to vote for them anyway, but agree they’ve not got a plan. I mean bloody hell. Are some people so rich and untouchable they can do this? As you’d not do it otherwise. It beggars belief.

@Annasoror, Labours energy policy is riddled with flaws and absolute rubbish. Energy generators already pay a 75% windfall tax, tax them further and it won’t be worth generating !

The cost of renewable projects will require producers to be guaranteed a return through a contracts for difference (‘top up’) scheme, meaning if prices fall, the generators will be topped up by consumers ultimately. If global energy prices fall, consumers will still have to pay for the renewable investments for years - it’s very hard to see how prices won’t go up to fund projects such as this.

Accelerating a net zero deadline by 2030 will cost consumers millions, and it’s unachievable. At least Rishi’s promises on energy security are accurate and affordable, even if the transition to net zero will take longer.

You see it on here all the time. This policy will just add fuel to the fire. Maybe they are hoping it will mean young people will support euthanasia so we can get bumped off, the government will save all that pension money and less drain on the NHS. Win win eh.

Exactly that. It’s not worth the £14 a year it would save us.

It's interesting that Sunak stood in front of the nation and lied to us about something stupid that was a provable lie.

I do not trust people who lie to me.

It appears many people on here don't care about being lied to as they are happy with Sunaks lies.

This is scary:

Well any conclusions and understandings from figures come from a personal position which is coloured by politics. People reading interpretations from economists understand that. But your readings aren't any more objective than anybody else's.

The millionaire pensioners are taxed above the threshold, we are talking about tax on the state pension which will drag in poor pensioners who already rely solely on the state pension now getting even less if it is taxed

Personally, I think the Labour vs Tory argument about taxing state pensions is just an emotive load of old guff.

For a start - no one is taxing the state pension and it's misleading to say they are. However, IF the Triple Lock is kept then state pensions are going to rise in the future until they are higher than the personal tax free allowance everyone gets.

One option is the remove the triple lock, which had been brought in to bring pensioners up to par with workers and once they overtake the personal allowmance may be said to have achieved that. Probably not a popular option but may be one that needs addressing at some point while state pensions rises at a faster rate than average salaries.

Another option is to keep personal allowance in line with the triple lock for everyone, thus giving everyone a leg up. Nice option (imo).

Or rise the allowance just for pensioners to stop them having to pay the £14 a year tax. Seems weird and yet another brick in the tax tweaks that have led us to a bit of a bonkers set of tax rules. But in some ways, the net effect of the government giving you £12000 and taking back £14 every year just seems a bit like moving ornaments around for the fun of it.

Sounds a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas.

If they only get the state pension, they will not be taxed. It is taxing private pensions.

The State Pension is only going to be taxed once it rises above the threshold of the personal allowance .

The reason this will happen is because the personal allowance has been frozen. By the Tories.

No one will receive less state pension than they do now.

The very poorest pensioners are on Pension Credit which is not taxable, so they will not be affected.

So much misinformation being spread.

I mean this politely but it’s obvious you think it’s a load of old guff as you’ve misunderstood it. Of course no one is taxing state pensions right now, that’s the whole point, they habe never been taxed.

Labour will be the first, to do so they would need to reduce the personal allowance element.

and state pensions are far away from average salaries, even min wage they are nearly half that.

The tax will still affect the millionaire pensioners as the personal allowance will reduce what they pay. Is that fair when working people with far less money will be paying more tax on the same income, they already save on NI.

It is about freezing the personal allowance not reducing it.

If they only get the state pension, they will not be taxed. It is taxing private pensions.

It's taxing the state pension. That's the Triple Lock Plus that the Tories have proposed.

Right now the state pension is £11502 per year.
The tax free allowance everyone gets in £12570 a year.

So if your only income is the state pension, you don't pay tax because it is less than the personal allowance.

However, the Triple Lock guarantee on pensions means they are rising quickly. Even at 'just' 5% each year they are destined to be £12,680 within 2 years - a rise of £1000 per year by 2026.

But the personal allowance is frozen for 3 years - meaning it won't rise.

So, in 2026 if you are a state pensioner and have no other income, you will be getting about £100 more in state pension than the allowance and so will pay tax on that £100.

That's what the Tories have said won't happen and that's what Labour haven't committed to agreeing with.

*I mean this politely but it’s obvious you think it’s a load of old guff as you’ve misunderstood it. Of course no one is taxing state pensions right now, that’s the whole point, they habe never been taxed.

Labour will be the first, to do so they would need to reduce the personal allowance element.*

If that's polite, I'd hate to see rude

And, with respect, I think it's you that has misunderstood - see above.

Current maximum State Pension is £11,504.40.

Current personal allowance is £12,570.00

So no pensioner will pay a penny of income tax on their state pension until it reaches £12,570.00.

Many poorer pensioners won't be getting the maximum state pension, but will be topped up with Pensioner Credit, which is not taxable. So, they will pay no tax.

I mean this politely but it’s obvious you think it’s a load of old guff as you’ve misunderstood it. Of course no one is taxing state pensions right now, that’s the whole point, they habe never been taxed

Labour will be the first, to do so they would need to reduce the personal allowance element

Labour is not introducing some sort of new tax in order to tax pensioners.

The state pension has never been taxed as it has never before exceeded the personal allowance and it won't do so for a while yet.

The only reason it might do so in the future is because the Tories have frozen the personal allowance.