Tonight's TV debate Sunak v Starmer - any predictions?

[CallingOccupantsOfInterplanetaryCraft]

Anyone up for a watch thread? Maybe even debate bingo. I know I know, don't threaten me with a good time. (Bingo suggestions: natural party of business, Labour has no plan, end the chaos, Rayner will take over, assorted references to Starmer's time as DPP probably blaming for Jimmy Saville again, inflation is down etc etc.)

At this point I seriously doubt anything like this will remotely change the game Nick Clegg style. I read somewhere the only way Sunak could come out of this ahead in the polls is if Starmer pulled off a mask scooby-doo style to reveal he's Jeremy Corbyn, which admittedly would be great telly.

I'm so fed up with the endless rhetoric but will definitely watch later anyway.

I'm not saying Sunak has got it right and I definitely won't be voting for either Sunak or Starmer, but Starmer is doing his usual prosecutor of the past behaviour and not setting out what he'd do or more specifically how he'd do anything. Starmer is not in TV debates. He's used to asking all the questions as in PM questions time but his lack of answering questions is very telling.

@Summerdays24

Can’t believe he said the army don’t have the ‘wherewithal’ to train young people 😱gave away his true feelings there towards the military.

wherewithal
/ˈwɛːwɪðɔːl/

noun

1. the money or other means needed for a particular purpose

In the context of the Tories National Service plan Starmer is correct…most of the required facilities/property got sold off years ago and HM Forces certainly don’t have the person power to facilitate training on that sort of scale either.

The £2000 tax rise stems from made up numbers calculated by Conservative SpAds.

...#BBCVerify analysis here on how that £38.5bn figure has been reached by the Conservatives - lots of questionable assumptions👇

x.com/benchu_/status/1798087049561665877?s=46&t=Uw4lJNwxFZFnX0Xs3doHYg

The MoD said it didn't want national service - their view was that it would have an impact on morale or they'd need to be trained separately which was a waste of resources.

I haven't accused anybody of anything.

You are almost as tetchy as Sunak was last night!

Perhaps he is wisely keeping his powder dry until the manifestos are published?

The debate was terrible but was quite glad I stayed tuned in to watch the short interviews with Ed Davey and John Swinney (SNP) afterwards (I turned off when Tice came on, sorry Greens, I didn't have it in me to stay for your bit) -- that was a much better way of finding out what they were all about.

The fiscal drag created by frozen tax thresholds bring in £1.30 extra tax for each £1 of reduced national insurance, rising to £1.90 in 2027/28. So even with the NI reduction (aimed only at working people as NI not paid on pension) we are now paying more income tax under the Conservative government.
(Source: Institute of Fiscal Studies)

Labour this morning calling Sunak a bare faced liar, in the mode of Bojo and his lies over parties in Downing street.

Which Sunak also attended and was fined for.

Might be worth remembering that come 4th July.

People have been saying this since forever. If it won’t be published 3 weeks before D day, when will it be? Why wouldn’t you give the public time to read and scrutinise it?

Yougov poll shows the public think sunak won the debate, but it was a small margin.

irrelevant of anyone’s politics, the fact it’s 51 percent think sunak won is interesting. It will have been watched by millions and approx 40 percent of the public are undecided on who to vote for. These debates go a long way to having the undecided decide. Those already settled don’t change their minds,

for me starmers inability to directly answer a question was very poor, we do have some Labour supporters in our house, some undecided, but no one thought starmer did well, in fact at one point we were like for gods sake just answer the question to starmer, it was frustrating. Sunak talked over him, and the moderator, but because he knew he had starmer on the mat and he couldn’t answer the questions, so he was going after him hard.

sunak knows the risk, a lot of people will find starmer and raynor impossible to vote for, I’m now one of them, but may choose bloody farage and reform instead, and that would not be good.

Have the Tories published theirs? or anyone else for that matter.

I think straight forward interviews would yield a lot more useful information (after the manifestos are published). Last night was like a game show.

Sunak made a big mistake there.

He said parents using the private school sector are hard working and have aspirations for their children, the inference being that parents who use the state system are lazy oiks who have no aspirations for their children.

It is a shame Starmer didn't pick him up on that.

I don’t care about them. Labour don’t need to bow to conservative game rules. They should release their costed manifesto and campaign hard on it now. Come on there’s 3 weeks to go, it’s now or never. Why bother releasing it a week before so it can’t be properly scrutinised? Or is that why 😱

He’s playing to his own voting base though isn’t he? He doesn’t care about the plebs, just the wealthy and pensioners. And racists.

What has starmer done to appeal to his?

So you were never going to vote Labour anyway? Genuine question, not being snarky.

Private healthcare. Starmer said he wouldn’t pay for private healthcare even if a family member faced a long NHS waiting list. However, the Labour Party’s own website said they WILL use private healthcare:

“We will also use spare capacity in private healthcare providers to clear the NHS backlog”

Yes, absolutely agree. Long form interviews with a good interviewer would be much more interesting and informative (esp anyone who has yet to make up their mind).

I understand why polling thought Sunak won last night. He kept repeating his lines about tax a la Michael Gove style and talking over the moderator. That style might win debate competitions but it's painful to watch.

It is a shame Starmer only really got fired up towards the end.

But on an equal token I take it you were never going to vote conservative yet are here saying starmer was the clear winner?

Yes and as has been pointed out that will be at the direction of medics. We have to reduce the massive waiting lists to enable people to work/live.

I couldn’t watch last night as no internet. Can I ask what the poster earlier in the thread meant by saying the thing about taxing pensions was huge please? Thanks.

That is not the same as an individual choosing to buy private healthcare. You are comparing apples with bananas.

The NHS has always utilised the private sector under Labour and Conservative governments. The salient point is that the services provided to the NHS by the private sector remain free of charge to patients.

So he’s happy to use the private sector when it suits him, but not for his own family?

Maybe watch it today instead? Or read a paper As there are a whole heap of people creating an alternative reality on this thread so I wouldn't rely on it as your source of information