Voting for Reform

[Behappyandbehave]

Would this be such a bad idea? I hate labour and tories. But I don't know enough about Reform.

I got 19 out of 24

a couple I guessed and guessed correct and some I had not heard of the question

did it again and its the same questions in a different order

I hadn't heard of the chartist or Tilda Swinton

but process of elimination with the Tilda Swinton question as Jackie Stewart was a racing driver and dcaprio isn't British

It’s very true. Immigration is how we’re plugging the funding gap resulting from our aging population

If we want to meaningfully cut immigration whilst preserving the state pension, we need to find a way to raise our birth rates to at least the replacement rate (and even then, we’d need another decade or so of high immigration to tide us over until that new, larger generation enters the workforce).

I’m not against doing that - it would be great if working people in the UK could afford the option of having larger families. It probably means, though, returning to a time when a single income could comfortably support most families. That, unfortunately, feels miles away.

This isn’t just left wing, pro-immigration spin. The National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) covered it in their report “The Impact of Possible Migration Scenarios after ‘Brexit’ on the State Pension System” and it’s something that even the right wing press acknowledge at times…

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/pensions/news/why-state-pension-cannot-survive-without-immigration/

I grew up in an area which reform UK has a lot of support (although not one of the four seats they are at risk of being elected in).

I haven’t lived there in six years, I’m an NHS Nurse (with 60k student debt for the privilege). My parents still live there (voting labour).

To those who are supporting reform UK on the grounds of controlling immigration, I ask this - what do you suggest for healthcare and social care. The UK, particularly England does not have enough people willing or able to train/work in HCPs and social care with a massively increasing + complex elderly population. Do you want the over 80s to be entitled to health and social care? If so, you need immigrants to staff the service, even to replace these immigrants in the future requires a massive investment in the skills in this country. In England, nursing and other HCPs/social care are not valued professions, it is not financially viable for many people and too many people have this attitude that they don’t want to let immigrants in, but these jobs are for other people’s children and grandchildren to do.

Whilst there is work to be done to make nursing and other professions something that British people are willing to do, rather than something they are willing for anyone but them (and the immigrants) to do - we need to accept that if Australia requires skilled immigration and other countries, that is time to start looking inwards at the decline in values due to not caring about others, than constantly jumping on the bandwagon about immigrants.

The NHS in England, has ~47,000 nursing vacancies. It takes 3 years to train a nurse, longer to develop their skills for specialist areas (I work in ICU, for example).

My personal idea of National service would be everyone has to work in the NHS, social care, emergency services or another public sector job for 2 years. If you don’t want the immigrants, you need to be prepared for more DIY, and less individualism.

If the values of reform UK genuinely align with your own, more so than another other party you can vote for, then by all means vote for them. However, do your own research, populism and jumping on the bandwagon is very easy.

I’m voting Labour, I am to the left of most of the Labour Party but their overall values are most similar to my own.

Goldusty · 04/06/2024 19:14
For me it’s a big fat YES with louder bells on”

Typical UKIP/Reform response: my bells are louder than your bells 🤣 Bet you have 350 million of them, too.

As I've already argued on this thread, however many people immigrate to the U.K., it is never enough.

We've had 2.4 million people in the last 2 years alone. Vacancies in the NHS and care come to about a tenth of that number, and most of those vacancies will be filled by British people anyway.

The health and care visa worker route has been rife with fraud and abuse since it started.

And as came up in the BBC debate, nurses who are just qualifying this year are finding it very difficult to get jobs. This is also what I hear from my nursing friends.

Hospitals have contracts to bring nurses over from India and the Philippines, which leaves very few jobs left for newly qualified nurses.

Net zero is not no immigration. We will still be replacing the half million plus people who leave. We can still give visas to nurses and carers if needed.

@DogsDinner

As I've already argued on this thread, however many people immigrate to the U.K., it is never enough.

This is true - and it’s because our birth rates have continued to fall, decade after decade - meaning our workforce is unable to support the levels of public spending that even Tory voters demand (things like the state pension).

If we cut immigration to net zero, therefore reducing the number of workers, then the remaining workforce are going to need to cover the tax shortfall…and that massively increased tax burden is likely to further exacerbate our falling birth rate as having large families becomes further unaffordable.

The health and care visa worker route has been rife with fraud and abuse since it started.
May I ask in what way? I've never heard of that.
And as came up in the BBC debate, nurses who are just qualifying this year are finding it very difficult to get jobs.
Really? I did a quick Google and didn't find anything about that?

There are 40,000 nursing vacancies. They’re spoilt for choice.

Blossomtoes,

There were over 52,000 newly qualified nurses last year. Many of them will have families, so can only work locally. They will not be the only nurses chasing those 40,000 vacancies.

Many care trusts now have contracts with foreign countries to employ a guaranteed number of nurses each year.

Regarding the social care visa route, the Home Office issued 275 visas to a care home that didn't exist. 1,234 visas to a company that had 4 employees.

The Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority launched 17 investigations into the care sector last year.

Recruitment agencies are charging illegal fees of up to £18,000 to candidates from abroad, leaving them trapped by debt, forced to work 80 hour weeks.

There's also a lot of anecdotal evidence, including from 2 posters on this thread, that there are issues with the quality of care given by some immigrants, and their poor grasp of English. One women died in a care home because 2 members of staff were unable to communicate the situation to 911.

I don't have any evidence that immigrant care workers are worse than British care workers, although obviously poor English is more likely to be a problem.

But it often comes up on mumsnet that immigrant carers will be better, whereas I would assume they are just as reluctant as the British to do a challenging, low paid job, but it is their only route to settle in the U.K.

999! I've obviously been watching too many American dramas.

Nobody’s chasing those 40,000 vacancies are they or they wouldn’t exist. All that overtime and weekend working must be very good news for nurses who can’t find jobs.

There's always vacancies in any job because of churn.

Newly qualified nurses can't do overtime. They end up working as HCA's if they can't get a job as a nurse.

Newly qualified nurses can't do overtime.

Why not?

They're supernumerary, so not counted as part of the workforce, until they've been signed off, which usually takes about 3 months.

Why does that mean they can’t do the overtime? Who says they can’t?

Yeah so coming from London (born here) I want to tell all the lazy, feckless, waste of space Reform voters to soundly fuck off. We Londoners are paying for the rest of the country and have been forever, without us you’d be completely bankrupt. We are immigrant powered, and it’s not merely economic - so many couples and families I know are of mixed British or migrant heritage and it’s brilliant. All the bilingual kids with connections to other cultures giving them a rounded, more global view of the world. My family included, now.

I’m so sick of the whinging about immigration by people who are just constantly on the take - most reform voters are spongers, and just want everything handed to them. Get off your fat arses and start doing something with your lives. Immigrants aren’t taking your jobs, trust me, and if they are it’s because YOU are not an attractive offer to the employer - that means YOU are the problem, because no one owes you a job.

Phew, that feels a bit better. Tl:dr I’d rather deport all the Reform voters, that’ll make the country less ‘full’ as you lot so often put it.

The problem with Reform is they lack workable solutions.

The Tories should have done more on immigration but the reality is we need the skilled workers, we need the international students, we need the care workers etc. They've not explained that to the public, they've just gone about reducing numbers which they then fail to do.

Net zero migration is a nice headline but whole sectors of our economy would collapse.

You're paying for the rest of the country because you've had basically all of the investment for the last 40 years while the rest of the country feeds off scraps. Cause and effect.

@User135644 nope, so much of our money goes to the rest of the country’s infrastructure, which would be fine by me if we weren’t constantly being dragged into economic and political crisis by those same regions voting for complete cretins like the current shower, Brexit and now Reform.

I live in a big city that voted Remain and hasn't voted in a Tory MP since Thatcher turned up so I get it.

But the point I was making was our financial dependence on London, to the extent that it is, is entirely self-inflicted and down to government choices.

UK is effectively a two party country when it comes to who will govern due to our first past the post system, latest Ipsos polls show reform, the greens and Lib Dem’s between them taking 3% more of the national vote than the tories, yet they will be lucky to get 20 seats between them, perhaps it’s time to look at proportional representation instead

I think Reform are full of shit and have no practical solutions to the problems the country faces (think Liz Truss). Going further and further right is not the answer and most of the electorate are not right wing (maybe 20% are).

However, if Reform get millions of votes and zero or minimal seats then it's a farce and it should start to build up momentum for PR. If Reform get, say, 15% of the vote it should be getting them a minimum of 50 seats. Proportionally it'd be nearer 100.

Amazing how you lot change it to migration to suit your agenda
it’s ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION that’s the problem NOT immigration ON ITS OWN !!

some people just won’t face up to REALITY!! All these ILLEGAL immigrants stabbing people …. Is that really what you want? If so, you are sick in the head!
two of the latest ones had been rejected from staying in the UK and no wonder when all that is in there heart is to kill! They do not deserve to be here!

'You lot', 'sick in the head'? Gosh, you clearly haven't had enough of galvanizing the opposition by treating people with contempt. At some point you need to balance out the thrill of moral righteousness and how many people you personally mobilise to vote against you in spite.