Voting for Reform

[Behappyandbehave]

Would this be such a bad idea? I hate labour and tories. But I don't know enough about Reform.

I agree. I also remember the Brexit debates.
I wasn’t in favour of Brexit myself, but I don’t think it’s helpful to shut people down by calling them racist.
It didn’t change the outcome of the referendum either, and yet some people do exactly the same thing now - tell everyone who has concerns regarding immigration that they are bigoted.

This. I think Reform will
match the Conservatives. Nobody could say what the Conservatives are for, and they have had a long time to whatever it is they claim is a good idea.

I don’t like Reform or the Conservatives. But immigration has been out of control, 700k last year, 600k this year. Conservatives focussing on a few asylum seekers as a distraction. These figures are a big deal particularly if you have a government that either cuts or does not invest in public services.

I will be voting Labour. But I want them to be much less open, less visas and the UK being very picky about who comes and indeed who gets a passport (which is too easy). I would also like a functional border service so that people do not enter the country, outstay their visa and there is no penalty. That is something we do nothing about currently

And I live in a very diverse area where many people don’t speak much English and social cohesion isn’t all that great.
That’s not to say mixed communities don’t work, I actually often prefer them.
I’m an immigrant myself, and so are several of my friends.
It can work well if people try to learn the local language and integrate, but that’s not always the case.
Where I live people tend to stay within their own groups, so it’s more like several parallel societies existing next to each other rather than some big happy mixed community.

They might match votes, actually we might see them match the conservatives in the polls in quick order - it's only a new method used by yougov the week (which, I think, is something to do with how they regard the undecided voters) which means they aren't level pegging today.

But of course, the political power is in the seats held, and reform won't hold a torch to what the conservatives deliver unless things really take off. But I think their popularity will shape conservative policy considerably going forward.

I think, it's more likey we'll see a new Conservative leader who hails from the right, Badenoch rather than Mourdant. That's going to shift the tone and focus of the debate.

The example of the immigrant who only earns around £10k a year is a little bit tricky anyway.

How exactly does it all work? With that kind of income they’d surely be entitled to some sort of top ups.

What kind of housing would they be able to afford? Most likely a room in a HMO.

Would they even plan to build a life in the UK in these circumstances, try to integrate and learn the language, or would they just want to earn money for a while and then leave?

And if the latter, what kind of impact would it have on the local community to be accommodating potentially large numbers of immigrants who (for possibly understandable reasons in each individual case) weren’t really interested in becoming part of that community?

I see it where I live. The tale of the vibrant and happy multicultural community some people like to spin is not always based on reality. Sometimes it certainly is, but more often than not it doesn’t show the whole picture.

@inamarina no one is talking about immigrants earning £10k.
£10k is what they need to earn to be fiscally neutral. Anything above that (and they will earn above that, obvs!) generates a gain for the UK. Living in HMO (aka living with flatmates) is also a common arrangement in this country, isn't it? Whether for students, new professionals etc. People just rent places with friends. Some hospitals offer cheap rooms for rent in accommodation blocks too.

Fawful

I have read the article you linked to which I agree appears to be an unbiased site. It does not remotely claim what you are saying!

It posits that a hypothetical 20 year old single immigrant potentially makes few financial demands, but their circumstances change, and once they have a partner and 2 kids, they need to earn £45k just to break even.

The article looks solely at the fiscal (financial) cost of immigration, and concludes that it makes barely any difference. It either contributes less than one percent of GDP, or costs less than one percent of GDP, and that immigrants from outside the EEA (which is what we have now) cost more than EEA immigrants.

It also argues governments loves mass immigration because they can spread our vast debt across more people.

It does not look at the other costs of immigration, which I believe have vastly more impact on quality of life in the U.K.

WOW! @DistinguishedSocialCommentator , I’d vote for Labour for 17 million quid and that’s saying something.

Fair enough!!
however, my principles are priceless.
We are all different as some may vote for someone for free, other for a fiver and many like me that would not vote for certain political parties unless they were doing something that would really benefit our nation in a fair way, ie reward those that have worked hard and been prudent with their money, and treat others on lower incomes and the seriously rich in a fair way

People renting places with friends is not exactly the same as the average HMO I see where I live.

Of course lots of students and young professionals share accommodation with flatmates.
But that’s a different type of demographic to people who come to the UK from other (poorer) countries to work in badly paid jobs. It’s not those people’s fault, it’s understandable why they would want to do it.

My point was what kind of impact it might have on local communities if large numbers of people living there are only staying temporarily, with no aim to integrate.

Of course you could say that students are also only temporary residents, but they often speak/ learn the local language. Where I live now there are large groups of people who don’t speak English and mostly stay within their own community. Don’t you think that might have a negative impact?

As a PP says as international fees are 18k per year, many people are not too dissimilar to me. I was far from the richest on my course.

The poorer immigrants tend to work disproportionately for public services anyway so they more than makeup for lack of earnings.

To be candid, I do not like Nigel Farage at all and wouldn’t consider voting Reform.

But I think Net Zero immigration is just a completely nonsense policy and, even if they somehow formed a government, they would never deliver on it. Birth rates in the UK are so low that you need immigration to ensure that there are enough workers to prop up our pension system. It would collapse within years of net zero immigration.

The only way that you solve the aging population crisis without relying on immigration is to somehow rework the economy so that families can survive and thrive as single income households, and I don’t know if that’s possible without massively revolutionary ideas that aren’t coming from any party at the moment.

It’s precisely why the Tories, despite always playing to their audience on immigration, never actually cut it. The first people who’d be affected are pensioners and businesses, who are core to the right wing vote.

With respect to illegal immigration (i.e. small boats); that’s a tiny percentage of overall immigration and nobody seems to have a sensible solution. Dealing with illegal immigration is, purportedly, one of Reform’s key concerns but they don’t have any workable policies (even Farage admitted that their current policy is unworkable and has indicated they need to go back to the drawing board). They offer complaints but no solutions, which is particularly pathetic when the topic is central to your campaign.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-reform-uk-immigration-general-election-b2556227.html

And frankly I couldn’t vote for a party that seems to think climate change is a hoax, even if I otherwise backed their policies.

Sorry that it’s behind a paywall but even the Telegraph readily acknowledge that the state pension cannot survive without immigration.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/pensions/news/why-state-pension-cannot-survive-without-immigration/

If we switch to net zero immigration, I don’t think there’ll be any choice but to do away with state pensions (or massively reduce them). Either way, most retired people would be instantly plunged into poverty. Honestly it would basically be a cull.

What do net zero supporters think we should do with the elderly?

Immigrants also get old, and we are creating/have already created a situation whereby staggering levels of people will be hitting retirement age each year in the not too distant future.

We cannot put off dealing with demographic change forever.

I would like to create a fairer society which has quality of life as a focus. Mass immigration seems destined to create the opposite.

Thank god someone gets it.

It’s a really bad idea. Don’t do it.

AmpleFatball,

You bring up the issue of climate change, so you must be aware that some predictions see England losing huge amounts of land, including large cities, to flooding.

Do you really think this is a good time to be increasing the number of people our already densely populated country has to support?

Where are these unskilled and how do they affect you directly?
You sound racist af.

Newsflash: The housing shortage has NOTHING to do with immigration.
It's due to inept planning departments that are not fit for purpose, the government failing to build 300,000 homes per year as promised, and landlords leaving in droves because of exorbitant taxes.
Who do you think staffs the NHS and our care homes? It isn't British people. Where do you think hospital doctors come from? Your A&E nurses? Your care home staff?

Immigration affects us all. I’ve given the reasons why and I’m not going to repeat it. And it’s tedious for people to shout racist every time someone raises immigration as a concern. It used to work and shut people up, which is why we’re in the mess we are in now. But people now see the comment for what it is - just a way of silencing people. And btw, if I was racist I would not support any immigration. Canada and Australia manage to have a points system which focuses on quality rather than quantity, and it seems to work pretty well.

Alicewinn,

It's really hard to argue with someone who thinks that an extra 700k people a year, all needing housing, aren't contributing to/causing the housing shortage.

The government can't and won't build enough houses, and even if they could and would, for environmental reasons I don't want them to have to.

Regarding who staffs the NHS, 80% of its staff are actually British.

Net zero migration would still allow for over half a million immigrants a year, which would be enough to fill all the NHS and care vacancies twice over.

You’re right, the housing shortage is due to the extra house building promised not happening. But, as a result of that, we don’t have enough housing to house the people already here, hence the reason why it’s stupid to have thousands of people coming here when we don’t have enough housing. Immigration hasn’t necessarily caused the shortage, but needs to be paused until the house building has caught up, which we’re talking many years, even if Mr Starmer’s promises to get homes built actually happens.

But to imply that all immigrants either brought enough money with them to support themselves or worked in essential services is an equally inaccurate reflection of reality as claiming all immigrants lived off benefits or were criminals.
In reality, all of these groups exist.
It’s just disingenuous to claim there are never any issues with immigration.

@Fawful

Unfortunately many hmo are actually not legal, safe or regulated and the all take cash each week or even day..

They cause social services problems for those living around them, and inside them with different factions fighting..

Many people sleep to each room, there are no living area and not enough loo for all the occupants.

Again unfortunately there is an under class who work in car wash type places and speak either no English or poor English. Many of these car washes have been known to use slave labour and use them as a front for money laundering.

With small numbers of people this wouldn't have mattered eg easier to crack down on but unfortunately the numbers let in from the eu were vast and all control was lost.. A study showed (ages ago) that people with no English would turn up at a and e with doctor treatable illness. But of course they didn't know how to access a doctor or had no proper address etc so they would go to a and e for a direct source of help.

It has calmed down now but years ago slavery, poor men perhaps with sen were found in all sorts of hovels being forced to work.