My sisters children are going to be removed

[Namechange543]

Name changed for this but hoping someone can offer some advice.

My sisters children are going to be removed, there is a court hearing on Tuesday to decide this but with the overwhelming evidence against her and the fact they’ve been on a child protection plan for so long with her making no positive steps it’s only going to go one way.

The social worker tells me once the judge has made a decision they will speak to family about placements for them. I really want to help but the problem is she has 3 children and I already have 2 of my own so I can’t take them all. I have a 4 bed house so couldn’t fit them even if I could cope with 5 children.

Will they want them to stay together or will they split them to keep them with family? And if they do split them how on earth do you decide which 1 you take?

It’s such a nightmare. My mum could take 1 and I could take 1 but then do we leave the 1 not chosen to go into foster care. How damaging would that be! I’ve cried so much this week with the guilt that I can’t help them all.

@Namechange543 For me it was a question of coming to terms with things as an older child, processing, moving on. I have had no mental health issues at all as an adult, career, my own family, etc, so take hope. What happens from now is important. Very difficult childhood experiences are in fact very common. I really do feel that it is not so much what happens to you, more how you deal with it, is important, and far more is known now about how to help children with traumatic experiences compared to when I was young.

Re the sort of psychological help available nowadays I will attach links below.

From your post to me replying to your questions (which you could get deleted, just that post?) my personal views based on what my family experienced is that the ideal (nb see comments on "ideal" below!) thing would be for them to be split up while having therapeutic work and then reunited, as long as they can go to individual foster carers who are experienced, mature, emotionally intelligent, understand the dynamics, will facilitate contact with you and other members of your family, seek really good help - see links.

I do think you need to put the needs of your children first in relation to what you decide about one or more living with you now or in the future, but even if you do decide you cannot at the moment, it is not a never say never situation, if things go well. And just having people who have their backs, like you, in their lives will make such a difference. If you were able to push for the right psychologicalhelp and regularcontact with each other and you and your family, which is well managed, you would be helping them a great deal.

However... life is not ideal and there are record numbers of children going into care, and much will depend on the individual social workers and foster carers involved and I would really strongly advise you find a really good family solicitor in the relevant LA who know the inner workings of the LA so that your input always gets through to the right people and you know how best to get things done. The last thing you'd want is for them to be lost in the care system, as it could be horrific for them and they could face more abuse. I don't have any experience of this as an adult but I am aware from threads on MN that having a shit hot supportive solicitor who knows local practice and the best way to communicate with the LA will make a huge difference. I would get that asap, start trying to find someone Monday. NB not all solicitors will be born equal or be shit hot... you need recommendations ideally and not from the social workers ...

These are some resources which may give you insights and so that you can see the sort of therapeutic help available - this first video is narrated by a child but it is in its entirety a really helpful summary about the ideal approach taken to help a child heal in these circumstances:

This is the website of the organisation who produced the above video it will have lots of useful info about the sort of help available:

beaconhouse.org.uk/?section=welcome-to-beacon-house

This is a video about where they help an adult, might be relevant for your sister:

This is an organisation who helps "birth" families who may have really good ideas and insights about what you could do - again no personal experience but have seen them recommended on mumsnet:

www.frg.org.uk/

Please excuse all the mistakes, and length, had to bash this out quickly.

@Lougle I appreciate your concern but don’t worry I have changed any identifying details so the only person that would recognise this situation from what I’ve posted are those directly involved in it and I really needed some support as can’t discuss this in real life.

It's amazing what a loving, stable family life can do. They are a mess a product of the abuse they suffered. But you have to take two on, I don't see any other way. Get every service to work for you, foster them instead of adopt so you get money for them. Spend it on therapy. Give those children the love they never had, show them the right moral way. In care they would be lost in the system.

I know this is the most significant sacrifice of your life and the situation is not of your making and you should in no way feel guilty of the decision you make. You sound like a good person and I think you know what you have to do.

@Namechange543 our posts crossed - I hope what i said was of some help - please excuse the obvious typos (like, you were responding to my questions, not your questions..) - best of luck with it all.

I've read every post, I'm so sorry OP this is heartbreaking.

My gut is saying to take the 5 year old as they have the best prospect of thriving the soonest. Experienced foster carers who understand abuse is what the older two needs.

That being said, you must only do what feels right to you. This is an enormous ask of anybody.

Another point to bear in mind is that the sister may go on to have other children that are removed from her.

Umm .. not suggesting it but it seems oo me that the OP's sister has mental health issues and deep set ones could the powers that be order her to be sterlised or fitted with a long lasting contraceptive device?.

Yes I know this sounds awfull and probley somethig that a Nazi state would come up with but surely she must be prevented from bringing any more poor children into the world in view of the disaster that has already happend?

Surely also this would be best for her as I know she seems a loathsome person she too has it appears been damaged too.

The OP to her great credit is doing her dammdest to break this cycle as surely if these children were to suffer more their only hope of becoming some sort to better adjusted adults can only be a good thing.

Awfull situation and the poor OP needs all the mortal support the group can give her. I just hope that the final outcome is the best it can be for the childrens sakes!

Sounds awful OP and you obviously desperately want to help. Please don’t split them and have one go into foster care- they would feel horrid rejection all their life!
Why can’t you get 5 kids into the 4 rooms? Growing up we fit 4 kids and 2 adults into 3 bedrooms and for a couple of years it was only 2 bedrooms and one child slept on the landing!
If it were my DN then I would be putting kids on put you ups on any floor space I could - up or down stairs rather than have them go into care. I know everyone is different and I have no idea of your circumstances though?

I can’t believe that despite all that’s been divulged on here posters are still saying OP should take on three seriously disturbed children, where there is sexual abuse involved. This isn’t some fairy story where with a tap of the wand all will come right. Those children are going to need huge amounts of appropriate experienced care and intervention.

In your shoes I'd take the little one and let the other two go to foster homes. It's all you can do really.

Just seen all the latest posts about how disturbed these poor children are. Totally get this is about far more than just space. It does sound like they need professional help. Extremely hard decision and very personal to the OP and her relationship with them and how she feels she would cope with even one

I would not bring children into my home who had stabbed another child or who had sexually abused another child, nephews or not. My children's safety comes first. I'm not sure you are the right person to give these boys the support and rehabilitation they need, and you shouldn't feel guilty about that.

I agree with PP that you should offer to foster the youngest, and let the older 2 go into care. Both you and your mum can and should keep up regular contact with them and stay in their lives without being their primary carer. They clearly need specialist support and you will have more energy to fight for them to receive it if you are not also bearing the brunt of the daily burden of responsibility for them. Also, if only one child goes into care they would experience that as a serious rejection, but with both of them going, but their youngest sibling being able to live with their aunty, they'll be more able to understand that I think.

Time2change2 Because the issue here is not about rooms, it’s about being able to emotionally support the children, as well as protecting them from each other. There has been sibling sexual abuse.

Not only that, OP will be looking to protect her own children.

It’s a very difficult decision and not just about sharing rooms.

How do the children respond to you and your family? How much insight do they have into their situation and their behaviours?

Can the children be fostered all separately, but regular meet with you, your family and your mum, on a one to one basis and then, if appropriate, in pairs etc?

If you can rearrange the house, you can claim payment for caring for the kids, plus a one off grant for equipment like beds, high chairs and car seats. Social services have various help if you are suitable eg asking for help to get a bigger vehicle. Splitting them is a bad idea usually

@okiedokieme it’s not about the house. OP has her own kids. They have been abused and then abused their own sibling! What will OP do if something got out of hand and something happened to her OWN child?

OP said that 2 of them cannot be left unattended it’s not realistic is it?

I cannot even begin to imagine this desperately sad situation for you and the poor children. All I would like to say is that you sound like an amazing,kind caring Auntie and thank goodness the children do have you looking out for them . 💐

Maybe you could have 2 and your mum have 1 or you have one and your mum have 2. Or your mum have all 3

You can't let one of them go into care that would damage them irreversibly. X

[quote Heyhih3]@okiedokieme it’s not about the house. OP has her own kids. They have been abused and then abused their own sibling! What will OP do if something got out of hand and something happened to her OWN child?

OP said that 2 of them cannot be left unattended it’s not realistic is it?[/quote]
Yes.

And the two eldest will soon have the struggles of puberty and all the extra strength and size that comes with that. Adolescence can be rough on all kids, but coming out of trauma and into all those hormonal, bodily and emotional changes? They really need experienced, highly trained foster carers who can be a steady hand on the tiller. Family love is a wonderful thing but all the love in the world won’t heal trauma on it’s own. These boys deserve to be taken on by people who are thoroughly prepared and go in with their eyes completely open.

OP can bring the love through visitation, and nana can too. There has been some really solid advice re: advocating and ensuring adequate legal support to effectively navigate the system. This is where their Auntie’s time can be most effectively used (without putting other children in the family at risk).

So sad for them and for you. I think it may be too much for you and your mum but going forward you can be a constant reliable figure in their lives still. They need intensive specialist help to start to overcome their past.

@Time2change2 you need to read the full thread - or at least OP's posts. They detail the circumstances.

@Justaboy no, the state cannot order people to be sterilised and there is good reason for that. They can remove further children at birth.

OP what a difficult situation. I think you will have to accept the older two going into separate foster placements. It is probably best for them. I would be concerned bringing a violent (and possibly sexually abusive/abused) 9 or 10 year old boy into the house. I don't think you have the training or support to deal with that behaviour.

The question would be the five year old. There is enough of an age gap between your own children and the five year old that it might be ok. But it would still be an enormous commitment and more severe behaviour could surface later while you are left with little or no support in a different local authority. In addition, taking only the younger child may be the best route from an adult perspective but be inexplicable to the 9 and 10 year old.

I would want some guidance from a fostering helpline on this matter. I would say from social services but they may not be very honest.

Whether or not you end up with one of the children, I applaud your involvement and I would encourage you to stay in contact as the supportive aunt. A steady, reliable adult in their lives can make a big difference.

Crossposted, @Time2change2

Whatever is decided Op as long as you support and love those boys and they are a part of your life, to know that they do have family who love them and who are a big part of their lives that has to help I the long run.

@copperoliver Read op's later posts!

@Namechange543 I think it's extremely kind and generous of you to consider taking in any of them, but the additional details you have provided suggest that any of these three children could be a danger to your own kids. Never mind a separate bedroom, you'd need a separate wing to distance them safely.

You seem upset at the possibility of somehow 'failing' these kids as their aunt if you let them go elsewhere. However, what if one of them harmed one of your children? I think you would feel even worse. You've mentioned sexual abuse and stabbing - that isn't anything you want your own children to be exposed to. You can't protect both sets of kids.

I'm not even sure I would push for contact in your situation. A completely fresh start with no ties to their past lives might be better for them. Something to discuss with the social worker, but I would let a professional guide me on this point - I'd only keep in touch if they thought that would be better for the kids.

Those three have lived through so much - any decisions now have to be based on what gives them the best chance of being rehabilitated, not on what makes anyone feel less guilty.

I'm so sorry you're in this situation.