My sisters children are going to be removed

[Namechange543]

Name changed for this but hoping someone can offer some advice.

My sisters children are going to be removed, there is a court hearing on Tuesday to decide this but with the overwhelming evidence against her and the fact they’ve been on a child protection plan for so long with her making no positive steps it’s only going to go one way.

The social worker tells me once the judge has made a decision they will speak to family about placements for them. I really want to help but the problem is she has 3 children and I already have 2 of my own so I can’t take them all. I have a 4 bed house so couldn’t fit them even if I could cope with 5 children.

Will they want them to stay together or will they split them to keep them with family? And if they do split them how on earth do you decide which 1 you take?

It’s such a nightmare. My mum could take 1 and I could take 1 but then do we leave the 1 not chosen to go into foster care. How damaging would that be! I’ve cried so much this week with the guilt that I can’t help them all.

Ive been through this I am sorry to hear of your difficult childhood .However saying "how did your Sister turn out differently from you do you think?" is a ridicolous question! Everyone is unique .The same could apply to any decent family who have someone in prison !

I can only add in the experience of a family friend who adopted siblings from a large group - hers were 2 and 1. They were born to drug dependent parents, had both severe medical and behavioural issues and they were literally thrown in at the deep end with fuck all support.

Their dream of children became a nightmare reality. The children tried to harm them, smashed the house to pieces, were excluded from school and cost the parents their families and friends who all walked away in utter horror. It was so bad that they tried repeatedly to hand the children back, but SS refused to help.

In the end the friends DH committed suicide, he couldn't face another day in the life they were living. She somehow soldiered on until each child reached 18 then she rented them a flat each for 12 months, and walked away. She's now a recluse, terrified of her own shadow and it breaks my heart to see what she's become.

You need to 110% sure you can do any part of this, OP. There is a strong chance those kids are damaged beyond repair by now.

Hi OP, I don’t feel best placed to give advice - this is such a complex situation that it’s not right to suggest who or how many children you can or should home. I think you need to talk to experienced professionals and decide together with your mum what is best for these poor children. Regardless of living arrangements, I hope you can remain a positive influence in their lives.
I just want to say that you seem like a lovely, lovely woman and I am so sorry that you’re dealing with this. As another PP said, it’s heartbreaking to think how many children are currently going through this.
Lots of luck to you.

What a difficult situation OP. No wonder you wish they'd been removed sooner.

What do your own children think? Do you have a partner and if so do they have a view?

I very much doubt that @Namechange543 will be allowed to take on any of the children, for quite a few reasons. Mainly because the children are likely to be assessed as needing expert care, probably to be the only child in the household, and certainly with their own bedroom. There is also the question of the OP's own children being protected from violence and abuse.

Thankfully, social services have protocols to follow, and cannot base decisions on the kind of kneejerk emotional responses we've seen displayed here by some misguided posters.

Be a loving aunt, as others have said. What a desperately sad situation- but there is hope that they may recover with specialist support.

Hugs OP. I'm sorry your sister is being personally attacked. One thing you learn when training to foster/adopt is that there is never an excuse but always a reason for abusive parenting and that unfortunately trauma begets trauma. Once you fully appreciate this you can let go of any ill feelings towards an abusive parents. Am I sad for my beautiful and perfect adopted daughter that her BP's couldn't step up for her? Absolutely. Am I surprised given what I know about their mental health and circumstances? Not at all. Am I going to waste single second being angry at them or let a single bad word about them cross my mouth especially when my daughter can hear? Never. Life's too short and you don't fight these kind of situations with anger and hostility you fight it with exactly the opposite. I really do wish all your family all the best and hope that these children can get the help and stability they need wherever it comes from xx

OP what does the care plan say? If the local authority are seeking a care order (interim presumably?) then this can only happen with them having put a care plan specifying what will happen to the children if they are removed. The court cannot dictate where the children go, the court can only approve or not approve the care plan the local authority have put forward, which must say what living arrangements are proposed.

I have read the thread and I have to say this:

Please get this thread deleted. It is awful to read this, knowing that the intimate details of three very vulnerable children's abuse are available to anyone who stumbles across it, including googling.

It is awful to read a bunch of strangers divvying up these children like bags of clothes. That is a job for experienced professionals, not internet randoms.

Please, please, ask MNHQ to delete this thread and give these children the privacy they deserve.

I think if I were in your shoes I would let them be placed by social services and keep in contact and push for them to get the care they need.

If you take any of them in social services will probably leave you to it and it sounds like they really need specialist care.

I really hope things turn out well for them.

Pigeon "I am so sorry for those poor kiddies! Yes so am I ,OP and everyone else on here! The point is that after so much abuse and a terribly dysfunctional childhood ,they wont be able to be scooped up and a few months TLC with Nan and Auntie be all better sadly .It will take many years of Counselling and expert care ,to even stand a chance !OP will not be able to cope and it will put a dreadful strain on her and her family!

So sorry OP. At the risk of repeating what others have said, it sounds like this is at an early stage of proceedings and the court is considering an interim care order. The LA will need to prove that the children are at risk (usually deemed immediate) of significant harm. Based on what you have said, it sounds likely that this will be reached. The LA will then need to consider all the options they can including family members. Practically, this means you need to be on the SW’s and court’s radar - I would ask for the SW to convene a family group conference where all relevant branches of the family who wish to put themselves forward can discuss options - you may be lucky and find that there are those on dad’s side who are equally concerned and want to put themselves forward. It may be that placements can be found for all within the family and they can maintain close family bonds whilst being safe and well cared for. Sadly it may also be the case that that simply can’t be done even though everyone is trying their best.

If your sister asks for you to be assessed (even if your not close she may come to the conclusion that she would rather family care for her children than long term foster care or a children’s home) and you agree to it then you would have an initial viability assessment (usually quite brief and geared towards seeing if you understand the risks and concerns, size of house, practical considerations etc). If that is positive there is a connected persons assessment which is far more detailed and which you can expect intrusive questioning. Any social worker worth their salt would want to know how well these children would be safeguarded. You would also be entitled to ask what sort of support you would get (funding/therapy for the children/respite). Whatever the outcome of that assessment the LA will usually fund some brief legal advice for you following the result.

Sadly looking at the ages of these children and the extremely traumatising experiences they have had I suspect the care plan of the LA will be for long term foster care unless a suitable family member is found. They will need a high degree of therapeutic intervention and “better than average” parenting at a minimum and no one would blame a family member for balking at that level of responsibility. It takes a very special person to make that level of commitment. I don’t think I would make the grade. I also suspect that despite the fact they usually like to keep sibling groups together, they won’t think that appropriate in these circumstances given the sexual abuse and high degree of sibling violence.

Best of luck

This is heartbreaking OP. I think the main thing here is to really think about what you can offer in a way that's going to be consistent and sustainable - for example, I think that a solid aunt relationship, with regular visits and contact, that lasts for years would be much more beneficial to the kids than you offering a residential placement that ends up breaking down. It sounds like a really tough situation and most people would struggle to offer to foster long term. I hope things work out OK for all of you.

I’m so sorry you find yourself in such a horrendous situation. I work in sw and I’m a foster carer, what I can stay is that the last thing this is about is bedroom space. These children sound like they have significant needs and if they can live together it needs to be based on that, although I would also say foster placements for three siblings can be hard to source. Sometimes siblings trauma prevents them for living together but with the right support they can still have a positive relationship and with individual attention start to heal. My heart broke for you when you mentioned “letting them down” and what I would say is, you aren’t if you continue to be in their lives, to support them and love them. If fact the biggest risk would be promising them a home without fully considering all the challenges like many people on this thread have suggested, there is a huge amount of breakdowns in kinship care and then the children have to move again which really would be the most detrimental outcome for them.

Do any of the children have EHCPs? Is there any chance the LA might consider a therapeutic residential school placement?

@Lougle

I have read the thread and I have to say this:

Please get this thread deleted. It is awful to read this, knowing that the intimate details of three very vulnerable children's abuse are available to anyone who stumbles across it, including googling.

It is awful to read a bunch of strangers divvying up these children like bags of clothes. That is a job for experienced professionals, not internet randoms.

Please, please, ask MNHQ to delete this thread and give these children the privacy they deserve.

I see your point but the OP is evidently desperate and she’s got a couple of responses that will definitely allow her to take a more considered course of action.

Don’t kick the OP when she’s very evidently down.

@pigeon999

I would split them between your mum and you, yes it will be hard, but I would find a way. The care system in this country is an awful place for any child.

I am so sorry for those poor kiddies.

I have met many children in care and adult care leavers. In many cases, foster carers expertly work with children to improve their coping mechanisms and prepare them for successful adulthood.

Yes, the stats are poor and more children in care end up incarcerated, fewer end up in work and more develop mental health conditions. But in the vast majority of cases, that is because of the trauma that they experienced before entering the care system.

OP seems to be very well aware of the reality of the issue, but your comment is simply incorrect and unhelpful.

@namechange543 I have so much respect for how you write about your family. You should be proud that you are a supportive sister and aunt.

@AdultFishcakes I'm not kicking the OP. I'm saying that I don't think this is the right place to be discussing the future of vulnerable children.

@gumball37

My thoughts.

5 yo goes with grandma. Other 2 with you. Yes.... I k ow what you said about their violent fighting. But you also said they're better with you. I think you should try to see if you can help them. The age of your older kids is also a factor in my opinion. They're much older...almost adults. If you had you g children who would likely be targets... I would say their safety would be put first.

The older ones are aged nine and 10! How the hell are they nearly adults?

@Lougle why should she get it deleted? Op has name changed so this can't be linked to other posts and there is no way the children can be identified. It may be horrible reading but life isn't always fluffy, op is here for support and advice.

@HollowTalk I think Gumball meant the age if op's children not her nephews!!

Don’t feel guilted into taking them by posters here. They won’t have to live with the violence and consequences. You, your partner and your children will. Same with your mother.

@Namechange543

I think you should not feel guilty for not taking in your nephews. They do by the sound of it need specialist care beyond that an average parent with no specialist training or experience could give.

However you HAVE been a good, constant role model in their lives, and by continuing that I'm sure that will be the best solution.

You won't be letting them down. Your sister did that.

@TimeWastingButFun

Oh god what a horrible situation. Ditto that splitting them up would be hugely damaging. Can you really not take them, with a lot of support? It's surprising what we can cope with when we get landed with situations sometimes. What ages are they and yours?

Did you not even bother reading what the OP said? She's already said that ages and why it's absolutely impossible for her to taking the three of them.

OP, I've some experience with this as a foster carer.

I don't think you or your mum should take the children.

You can support them enormously by being their advocate and by having regular visits. Far better to do that and sustain a positive relationship over years than to try and parent them and end up breaking down under the pressure. It's a marathon, you have to pace yourself.

Your DM is not in the right position to help. She doesn't have space, and these children will need a more support than you can imagine.

They need a specialist foster placement, with experienced carers.

Don't feel any guilt at being unable to do this- it's far more difficult than you can imagine.

I think that what will happen is that if they are removed they will automatically go to emergency foster carers and then you would start the process of taking them if you decide to do so and that would take time. During that time you will really need to consider this from all angles and really see what the children's options are and what is really best for them. (and also for your children too)

I know of a few emergency foster carers and they all have real experience of children who are traumatised and actually they may be more help than you or your mum initially - because they are not emotionally involved/tied to your sister and they have experience.

Another thing is that the emergency foster carers normally have good relations with the social workers and are able to access the resources the kids need quickly. After a few months of the kids being with the foster carers, their behaviour may change, their needs better assessed and the way forward may be clearer.