My sisters children are going to be removed

[Namechange543]

Name changed for this but hoping someone can offer some advice.

My sisters children are going to be removed, there is a court hearing on Tuesday to decide this but with the overwhelming evidence against her and the fact they’ve been on a child protection plan for so long with her making no positive steps it’s only going to go one way.

The social worker tells me once the judge has made a decision they will speak to family about placements for them. I really want to help but the problem is she has 3 children and I already have 2 of my own so I can’t take them all. I have a 4 bed house so couldn’t fit them even if I could cope with 5 children.

Will they want them to stay together or will they split them to keep them with family? And if they do split them how on earth do you decide which 1 you take?

It’s such a nightmare. My mum could take 1 and I could take 1 but then do we leave the 1 not chosen to go into foster care. How damaging would that be! I’ve cried so much this week with the guilt that I can’t help them all.

If SS have any sense they will not place any of the boys together. The older two need an experienced foster carer each with no young children in the home.
You might be able to take the youngest and have contact with the older two. It might also be easier for the older ones not to be the only one in foster care.
Your DM will probably not cope.

Namechange543 I am so very sorry, this is a terrible situation for them and all of you. Some people have given incredibly helpful advice, I hope you can pick out the ones who are talking from a position of knowledge or experience.

Please do not take any of the children out of guilt. Please only take any child if that is truly in the best interest of the child and if you can cope.

In terms of whether these children will ever recover from the early experiences, I think none of us can ever say that. Even the experts will not be able to tell you that.

Here’s one example for you. My son, by adoption, was neglected as a baby and small child, removed before the age three and with us before age 4. He has some issues but he is doing well. Therapeutic parenting (as much as we can manage) and a lot of support can help to repair the brain damage done to children by neglect and abuse. The brain is very plastic and can grow new connections. However, I’m not sure if any of us can completely change the negative things that have happened and have influenced us fully. I think hoping for the best but preparing for the worst means that these kids need all the help they can get from people who will be trained and can really help them.

Another point to bear in mind is that the sister may go on to have other children that are removed from her.

I haven’t read the full thread, (it’s so long, so I hope you’ve had some great advice) so I apologise if this has been suggested already.
Could you have the children, 5 children in 3 bedrooms doesn’t sound too cramped, and then your mum have them at weekends to give you a respite?

Based on the experience of two close family members who adopted abused children I would honestly advise you not to take any of them on a permanent basis. I think PP who suggested keeping in touch and remaining their aunt has the best idea. One family member has one of their adopted children in private foster care to keep them separate to the others due to violence and emotional abuse towards their siblings. The other has had to put two of her three into care due to violence towards the youngest sibling.

These children were all removed from violent and abusive birth parents long before DN’s ages. Things have been much better for the parents and children since they have been separated from their siblings and the do all still see each other regularly.

This is heartbreaking for you, but I think trying to keep the children together or with the family may well be the worst thing for everyone. I really think fostering with experienced carers would be best.

I agree with endlessginandtonic “OP, “I would caution against taking in any of the dc unless you are able to undertake training around therapeutic parenting and similar. Don't underestimate the chaos that traumatized dc bring in their wake.”

I’ve tried to look up about ‘trauma bonds’ between siblings who have experienced abuse and neglect. I cannot find anything @ Deadringer do you know anything? My understanding of what can happen to children in families who suffer abuse is that the relationships among the siblings can be abusive, a kind of pecking order, and what one would naturally hope (older ones looking after younger etc or protecting them) doesn’t always happen - in fact the opposite my happen. Which I think is the case here.

Plus the connection may in some way perpetuate the trauma and doesn’t necessarily allow for healing.

This is why some children who have suffered abuse are purposely not kept together. Plus of course a lack of foster homes who could cope with three traumatized children.

So I really think some sort of childcare development experts need to come into the situation advise what is best.

Cramming those children into a home together where the abuse cannot be addressed and where other people (the OP’s own children) could be negatively affected sounds very difficult indeed and not helpful to anyone.

It may be that adoption is not on the cards for any of the children but some younger one may still get adopted and long-term foster care may be an option.

Please OP look for and find the big picture and the long game and do not be guilted into anything.

Are all the people telling you to take them also parenting numerous traumatized children through the foster care system? I doubt it.

Maybe people could read the thread? This is not about bedroom space, these children will not be 'turned around' in a few months, its not best for them to be kept together and bedroom sharing is out of the question

This is a heartbreaking thread...i really feel for you op and those poor kids..they been seriously let down by society..reading your updates perhaps they would be better split up..a total fresh start...they are going to need intense one to one therapy...really cant get my head around how they have slipped through the net to this extent..so sad...

@ballsdeep I agree with you, but sadly many women go onto have babies for many years. Two boys I fostered had both been sexually abused and the mother went on to have seven babies. All removed thank goodness.

take all 3 ! I have 5 children in a 4 bed we all fit no problem , do not let your nieces and nephews go into the care system !

@bethg21

take all 3 ! I have 5 children in a 4 bed we all fit no problem , do not let your nieces and nephews go into the care system !

Did you read any of the thread?

We are adopters of siblings, both with some problems, and were approached to take on a third. We said no. And ours were placed in foster care at birth, just one carer each, but many difficulties in birth family/prenatally. Don't feel guilty if you can take one or none.

What a tough situation. Your sister is scum. The system has completely failed those kids. What are they waiting for? One of the kids to kill each other than admit their faults

@DurhamDurham I’m with you. I absolutely agree.

Some people are so thoughtless 5 kids is an awful lot. Social services can be useless very useless and if they have failed the children and their mother. Once the children were to be placed with OP it would be OPs responsibility... it’s not about the bedrooms. OP could live in a mansion! But taking on 3 kids as well as your own is huge. I thought this even before OPs update.
The children sound like they all need separating so they have individual attention.

As for your mother I don’t think it’s appropriate I think it would be far too much for her. Your not obligated OP to give up possibly your job and other things. You have your own family too we don’t know your own circumstances to judge and say you should take them in. It’s a terrible situation.

@Namechange543 I have been through this, I was 5 when I went into care, I had two older brothers who would fight to the death. I might be able to help. Can you answer:

• You see the dc regularly. What will they want to happen ideally? And as their second or third choices?
• If one has sexually abused the others, they will have been sexually abused themselves - what would be your best guess about this?
• What would the mother's narrative about all this be?
• Are there any good points about their life at home and would the children prefer to stay there?
• How did your sister turn out so differently from you do you think?

@SimonJT

None of the children will ever be anything like a normal child, they’re too old. The youngest is included in that. This isn't true, but they would need the right help. Going into normal residential care or to carers without sufficient experience might however mean that they would never change trajectory.

OP. The older ones almost definitely won't get adopted, they'll go into long term foster. there are some brilliant dedicated foster carers out there who have had training and experience that you haven't.

If you can keep the younger one then you are doing the best you can to keep the family 'together', but at 5 the younger is still adoptable. They might benefit from 2-1 care that you can't provide.

Love and family links are not the be all and end all.

I have worked in a supervised contact centre so am aware of the levels of abuse some children have had before being allowed to have even supervised contact with the non resident parent, and this goes even beyond that - surprised that your sister still has residency.

Your nephews will need very skilled foster parents, ideally one to one but think that keeping them together would not be in their individual best interests, but much would depend on the reports.

Please don't confuse having family ties to being able to help - they are very damaged and have a long road ahead.

Perhaps your best role is to be their loving aunt who sees them, loves them unconditionally.

@bethg21 honestly you don't have any idea how hard it is to take care of traumatized children & what effect it would have on op & her family
some of us have seen things like this in real life -which is why we say don't do it
& I wouldn't say ops sister is scum = we don't know whether she has become an addict has severe mental health issues or what ever. You note that op hasn't criticized her in that way - obviously her sister is not a suitable parent but we don't know why - I will admit I feel angry that this still happens.
Re sw - there simply isn't enough of them & some of the rules about taking dc away are tilted towards keeping dc in families & supporting them because of previous scandals of dc being taken to quickly. Its a catch 22

@ihavebeenthroughthis

First of all I’m sorry you’ve experienced this.

In response to your questions. The children want to be moved, they haven’t said where but they say they hate their mum, they hate living at home, they would rather be in care etc. The eldest has very low self esteem and poor mental health, he often wishes himself dead and says how he is worthless etc.

The eldest was sexually abused by his father (now in prison). As far as we know the second wasn’t but that could be disclosed down the line. The youngest wasn’t born when he went to prison.

My sister thinks she has been a victim of abusive partners, which is true, and she is helpless in the situation. She can’t see how she has failed to protect them and allowed this to continue.

My sister has long standing mental health issues and always has.

@bethg21

take all 3 ! I have 5 children in a 4 bed we all fit no problem , do not let your nieces and nephews go into the care system !

Can you read? Did you read?

It appears not.

OP, I agree with many others, keep contact. Write, phone, txt, see them as often as you can. But you can't take them in. And it will bring your mum to her knees.

How did your sister turn out so differently from you do you think?

This is such a hard question and I don’t think it’s up to OP to answer. I think a lot of this comes down to resilience, individual experience, genes, support, personality and mental health.

I have a cousin who had her 3 children removed. I won’t say the rest of us had very healthy upbringings either but she was already showing signs of psychosis in her teenage years. There is no knowing what makes someone with the same life experience go one way or another, but often your particular personality and genes react a certain way to trauma. Even without trauma people grow up to have chaotic lifestyles due to this mix. There is no one single reason or we could cure addiction.

of all the threads i have read,this is the saddest.

OP donot feel guilty about not taking these children. I think your mother is very unsuitable.

I too would not consider splitting them, but out of them all,you could take the youngest. But again, i would not