Joker - come and talk to me when you’ve seen it! (Spoilers)

[SinkGirl]

Saw it this morning, thought it was fantastic - so sad but brutal. Phoenix is amazing as always.

I need to talk about the ending though!

I saw it today! Thought Phoenix did an amazing job. Wasn’t so keen on the mental health aspect of it but it was an interesting and different take on the origins story.

He is amazing. He just gets better and better. It was a masterclass from him.

I’m just curious for your thoughts on the ending. SPOILER WARNING FOR ANYONE READING

I thought the film did some really interesting stuff around what was real and what wasn’t - some parts were obviously in his head (the relationship with the neighbour for example). But then the last scene in the room at the hospital, and the social worker mentioning him being in hospital right at the start (with the short clip of him in what looked to be the same or a similar room) - did you think it implied the whole thing was just a delusion? That was my immediate reading but DH didn’t think so and from looking online I don’t think many others seem to think so either.

I wondered the same thing.

It was so hard to watch, the unrelenting awfulness of his life. You could understand so many of his actions, and almost sympathise with him.

Phoenix was incredible. He needs to win the Oscar for this. He was just breathtakingly good.

I watched it this afternoon and love it!!
I hadn't thought of this ending idea at all and now I'm itching for my dp to get out of the shower so I can discuss it with him

Theres a link on twitter where Todd Phillips unpicks the theories. I loved it. Found it tough and heartbreaking in places.
Loved all the 70s details, THAT stunning nod to Travis Bickle, Phoenix of course.... Really impressed by the score too. I like to think Craig Mazin recommended her to Todd Phillips after her work on Chernobyl.

Saw it last night, excellent acting and heart rending in places, need to see again

Soundtrack good too

Surprised Gary Glitter was amongst the sountrack

Yes, I was surprised by that too!

The score and cinematography were fantastic.

I thought it was made obvious that he was delusional about his neighbour so I could have done without the flashbacks when he went to her apartment. But plenty of the reviews I’ve read didn’t see that coming.

That’s the one thing that doesn’t make much sense to me if it is all a figment of his imagination. But then maybe he’s recounting events that happened (unreliably) rather than fabricating them?

He definitely should win the Oscar, but the film has caused a lot of controversy, especially in the US. I think it’s mostly unwarranted to be fair.

So glad everyone here so far enjoyed it. I was blown away, best film I’ve seen in a while so I was quite shocked it had gotten such poor reviews in some places.

It always surprises me when people who’ve made lightweight comedies actually make something like this! First Adam McKay now Todd Phillips.

I think the reason it's had a few bad reviews is simply they didn't like the very stark society gets what it deserves message at the end. It's also not a pretty, neatly wrapped up film.

It's confusing, hard to watch in places. So many films at the moment are just fluff. And that's ok, I love the Marvel movies for example. But to get a film with so many layers, with so many questions left at the end. A film which actually makes you think and consider is a rare thing, and critics in certain publications don't like the questions it raises about how sections of society treat those with mental illness, how some people are ostracized and their reactions.

Sorry, slightly rambling response. It's early!

I loved it and thought it was the next film I’ve seen in a long time. It’s far less violent than many others but I guess the message of the poor and oppressed rising up is terrifying to the ruling elite.

Phoenix was outstanding.

Do you think they were brothers? The photo threw me...but he could have imagined that too...

I was just reading this - a group of film critics debating it and it’s just annoying.
www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/movies/story/2019-10-04/joker-reviews-violence-controversy

Two genuinely thought he killed the woman at the end (not a chance!) and just one allusion to “maybe a lot of it is hallucination” (yeah, do you think?!)

Film critics clearly aren’t as sharp as they used to be back in the day! I used to write for film magazines back in the early 00s and the lack of critical thinking here is a bit alarming.

I appreciate it didn’t spend too much time investigating the cause of the public’s rapid turn on the wealthy but I didn’t think that was necessary given the current climate!

I don’t think TW was his father. But I also doubt the scenes around him getting the notes from the Arkham State Hospital - they wouldn’t even get the notes out would they? And at one point in that scene he says maybe he needs to be admitted to the hospital - but we know from the second scene he’s already been in that hospital. And the inside of the hospital looks completely different from when he’s later in it himself, assuming it’s meant to be the same place...

I like that it’s so ambiguous so it’s not a criticism, but it seems a lot of people didn’t think it was as ambiguous as I do.

I am hoping that the ending was all one of his lies to someone. Otherwise it was an utter disaster of a film. The joker always tells people lies about how he became who he is, that's part of the joker. But it's never the truth. You never know what happened to create him. Plus he did say to the doctor 'it's a joke you wouldn't get it'. And he has in the past pretended that he was a failed comedian. If that's what they meant, it was genius.

Otherwise if that's not what they meant, then it would be a brilliant film only if they renamed it and made it nothing about the joker. Because that person was not the joker. He doesn't kill people out of anger, which is what he did several times. He kills people for no reason at all, for fun. But it's not the joker under any circumstances. The joker is a true psychopath to a T, he doesn't care about anyone in the slightest, not even his own life matters. He is unpredictable, extremely clever and very manipulative.

I can't fault phoenix either way, he did brilliantly no matter what. It depends on which way they meant it. But it's not his fault if it wasn't actually the joker, he played the part he was given.

Just saw it too, one of the the best representations of mental illness not wealth with properly and childhood trauma manifesting. So sad. An amazing film

It was a really good film. But it wasn't the joker.

I also thought afterwards was it all his fantasy. I also thought shit I chat to strange people all the time and imagined waking up to find someone in my living.

I also used to dance around in my living room pretending to be on stage. Maybe I was mentally ill although my therapist said it was completely normal.

I disagree that that wasn't The Joker. The way I read is we've been shown how The Joker came about, the character has literally just evolved and all the public adulation and removal of multiple medications will see his character change further.

Just seen it....bloody brilliant.it wont be to everybody’s taste but it was the best film I’ve seen in a long long time. He completely deserves an Oscar.

my brother and I thought we were intended to take the events literally... he snapped post medication loss and did kill his neighbour and the counsellor at the end??

You’re not alone - a lot of people are reading it that way (although I’m not sure there was any indication he killed his neighbour was there, I can’t remember now?).

Personally I think it’s deliberately ambiguous and there’s no right answer - the brief clip of him in seemingly the same room at the hospital, right near the start of the film, suggest something untoward is going on, but there’s no explicit answer. We know from that first Murray scene that he’s prone to fantasies, so after that I doubted everything I saw. Didn’t occur to me for a second that the relationship with his neighbour might be real, so I was surprised when they did a reveal of that. I don’t think there’s any chance he killed the doctor / whatever she was at the end. Perfectly formed bloody footprints and no blood elsewhere? Definitely seems more like a fantasy.

I think it’s possible that it all happened mostly as set out but I suspect it’s either all a delusion or an unreliable retelling of past events.

I get that many fans love that the Joker has no reliable backstory, but I don’t think showing one possibility for the development of a villain is letting down the whole thing. I thought it was very well done.

I don't want to derail, as I haven't yet seen it so don't want spoilers (obviously haven't read the whole thread), but can I just ask, how disturbing and dark are we talking?

I really want to watch it, ideally at the cinema, but can find dark and disturbing a bit mentally exhausting on the big screen

Yes it is dark and disturbing but not the sort that gives you nightmares. It’s more heartbreaking in parts, can get you thinking about how badly people with mental illness are treated, etc. and there is some graphic violence.

Surprisingly (to me anyway) I loved it and I really didn't enjoy the source movies of Taxi Driver and Clockwork Orange.
I didn't see the twist that others saw - to me it was clear that he was totally gone by the end and killed the psychiatrist (different woman / room from the earlier scene)