Joker - come and talk to me when you’ve seen it! (Spoilers)

[SinkGirl]

Saw it this morning, thought it was fantastic - so sad but brutal. Phoenix is amazing as always.

I need to talk about the ending though!

I’m not suggesting it’s the same room in which he sees the social worker at the beginning.

In that early scene, she asks him if he’s thought more about why he was in the hospital and he has (what appears at the time to be) a flashback of a few seconds where he’s in a white room, just like the one at the end. If this isn’t what the film is suggesting, why was that comment and scene there? It would be a strange choice.

Later when he goes to get the notes from Arkham State Hospital it looks completely different from what we see at the end. Which is the real place? He says to the clerk that he thinks maybe he should be in there himself - but according to that early scene he’s already been in there (that’s not getting into the fact that this guy even gets the notes for him in the first place, which wouldn’t happen).

I think it’s extremely unlikely that he killed the psychiatrist - he’s wearing all white and all he has is bloody footprints? Nobody is chasing him until he runs out of the end of the corridor? That seems far less likely than it being another of the delusions he’s had all the way through.

Then there’s the scene where he says he’s always felt like he doesn’t exist.

And the scene in the theatre / cinema, whatever it was... huge police barriers but he manages to just walk round them and find an entrance and find a uniform?

I absolutely loved it.
I thought he did kill the woman at the end but didn’t see anything about him killing the neighbor. Loved the music too.

I didn’t get that he’d killed the neighbour but I did think he’d killed the psychiatrist. This is one of those rare films I want to immediately see again it was so good.

That’s Life by Frank Sinatra is one of my all time favourite songs

Loads of people I know refuse to watch it because of Gary Glitter score.
They don't know what they're missing.

It was a perfect film for the times we live in. The relentless beating that the poor and ill are getting from austerity cuts to health services and the harsh sanctions and PIP cuts.
The rich getting richer and the poor still in the gutter.
I would think that it would make some people in society want to rise up!

Brilliantly acted. I took too much of it literally, according to this thread, though!

Maybe all of it was delusions....

I’m not saying my reading is right! The director himself says it’s open to interpretation. I’m just confused by some of the choices made if that wasn’t the intention.

AMAZING film and JP is incredible.

Would you think it's suitable for my 16 year old? I know it's a 15 but the reviews of violence/dark/disturbing are worrying me. And 15's usually mean 18 (IMO anyway).

@gluteustothemaximus I personally think it should be an 18! Graphic scenes of people getting shot and stabbed in the face with scissors. It is an amazing film but uncomfortable to watch as his health just declines. I can see why people say it glorifies violence as the city praises him for his murders

Thanks usernames. Hmm. Not sure then. I was suprised at the 15 rating when reading the reviews. I guess making it a 15 must mean more cinema goers/more money.

Spoilers

I've seen it, I don't know what to make of it if I'm honest, I'm more use to the Heath Ledger type Joker not the mental health angle. I thought Joaquin Phoenix acting was amazing though.

So two things, I don't think it was all delusions, I think it was all real, he'd snapped in the end. I also think he did kill the Councillor at the end. He says way before his "transformation" when she ends their initial sessions due to funding, he now knows that he exists and people are starting to notice him. I think from this he's started to evolve, in this process he'd gone from wanting to kill himself on Murray's dressing room to killing him, a person who he was obsessed with and idolised.

Secondly someone said he's not Joker, it's a movie of its own. If you've seen Spiderman into the Spider-verse then you'll know there are multiple universes where characters exist. In Joaquin's Joker universe, Bruce might not even become Batman in his universe.

Its terribly sad in a way, definitely a different portrayal of the Joker character.

The social worker in the early scenes and the psychiatrist at the end were two different women.

I definitely need to watch it again, I’m sure there’s stuff I missed. I don’t understand some of the directing choices if it is supposed to be taken literally. Perhaps it’s more of a flashback told by an unreliable narrator, in a Usual Suspects type situation.

I just don’t see that they expected us to believe he’d killed the psychiatrist at the end based on what we see.

I saw it last night and thought it was phenomenal!

JP's acting was incredible. To feel such pity and yet such revulsion for the same person was really unsettling. The physicality was really interesting, and the obvious distress at first with his laughter that faded to simply embracing it as 'the real him' was clear.

I don't think he killed the woman at the end. He wouldn't have emerged so clean if the footsteps were real. Plus the bloody footsteps seemed to go on a little long and were formed a little too perfectly. I saw it as symbolic of him leaving a trail of blood and death wherever he goes and loving every minute of it. Of course he may have strangled her (not sure that he's physically strong enough to have emerged unscathed with no defensive wounds though?) and the bloody footprints could have still been delusion.

I hadn't even thought the whole thing could have been a delusion! It's an interesting thought. I'd considered that everything from the ambulance was though. So he was just taken to Arkham (to the final scene) and his delusion was that he was rescued by a crowd of adoring clowns that see him as their saviour.

I'd also noticed that the interior of the hospital was different too, but thought that maybe it was because he saw it as, effectively, his heaven. Surrounded by people that understand (other patients), fed and watered so he doesn't have to worry about it, knowledge that this is the worst it's going to get and he doesn't even care. Everything was so perfect and white it just didn't seem realistic for that to be the real appearance in Gotham. But it was his paradise and the place he was desperate to get to, so the white effectively symbolised heavenly clouds as he skipped along.

I figured his hair went back to dark because he hadn't bleached it and only used temp dye that came out after a couple of washes, especially used over such dark hair.

There's still so much to think about so I'll definitely be seeing it again!

I looked for a thread on this just to say that JP's acting was magnificent and he really deserves any accolades he gets. Never really rated him as an actor before.

Wasn't that bothered about seeing it but it's definitely one of the best and most haunting movies I've seen in a long time.

I took it that it all happened and that he killed the psychiatrist and the neighbour but the producers didn't want to show women being murdered on screen so there was just a supposition.

Obviously this was the lead up to his character evolving as a PP said.

Oh wow. Such a powerful film incredible acting by JP - he deserves an Oscar for it. Such a dark movie. Not usually my kind of thing but I loved it. I'd like to see it again to try and clarify a few things mentioned up thread. Really recommend that people see it.

Loved it, love this thread.
I want to watch The King of Comedy and Taxi Driver again now.

I wonder if they didn’t show him killing the women purely to keep it a 15 (£££)

There was a thread on here a couple of days ago talking about how CGI has ruined horror because the violence is more explicit now they can fake it. IMO this is exactly what makes Joker so brilliantly & shockingly compelling - it's like an old school scary film where by the insinuation of violence makes it far more arresting to watch.

The inside of the hospital may look different because that last scene could be further off into the future.

Thought it was brilliant and powerful. The line that got me was "the hardest thing about mental illness is trying to act normally"
Did anyone else see shades of Micheal Jackson in a lot of the last half hour when he becomes the Joker? The dancing down the stairs bit especially, and when he goes on stage on the TV show

I took a 14yo to see it, we both really enjoyed it and neither of us thought it was any more disturbing than some of the stuff shown on TV.

I also thought that it was unclear whether the beginning was his take on the ending, making the story a recount of his delusions rather than the story due to the question about understanding why he was in Arkham as he hadn't been there before - or whether it was seperate scenes and it did actually happen.

I assumed he killed the psychiatrist due to the bloody footprints as he ran.

It doesn't need a sequel - we've seen lots of interpretations of what happened to him next.

@BloggersBlog - I agree. MJ came to mind for me as he danced before heading on stage in particular. No idea why but it was definitely there!

Glad it wasnt just me!