Page 3 | Losing Adult Children to Gender Ideology?

LaGiaconda · 2023-04-30T06:28:58+00:00

I wondered about a thread for people to share experiences. Also interested in hearing about relationships that have been rebuilt between GC parents whose children are/were believers in identity ideology. I am a gender critical feminist who is currently involved in litigation. I lost work after a Tweet of the #IStandWithJKRowling type. Because I know my daughter (mid 20s, living 100 miles away) has very different views, I have only given her brief details of the case, which has been going on for many months. Some days back she messaged saying she wanted me and her Dad to promise not to mention the case at all on her forthcoming visit to us. It didn't feel right for her to try and say what we could and couldn't talk about in our own home. When we said we wanted to enjoy her visit, but did feel it was sometimes right to talk about difficult stuff, she cancelled. It is upsetting. .

Original poster

LaGiaconda · 05/05/2023 09:12

While it's relatively easy to avoid discussion of some news item - what's going on in the SNP - the trouble is that quite ordinary questions 'How are you?', 'What's been going on in your life?' 'What's new?' become quite hard to answer. Over the last year I have been routinely doing this avoidance.

But it becomes harder as the case escalates, new emails arrive, meetings get set up etc. Unfortunately litigation does take up a good deal of headspace

At the same time the last couple of years have seen some legal changes and challenges to the influence of gender identity ideology in public life. There has been the Forstater case, the Cass Review, the Nolan podcasts, debates about fairness in sports, and the placing of rapists in women's prisons. Many organisations have pulled out of Stonewall.

I suppose what my husband and I had assumed was that

a) our very intelligent daughter might passionately (and rightly) support the rights of a particular group to be free from discrimination

but as she is no longer in the slightly 'heady' student environment

b) she would probably be becoming more aware of some real world dilemmas which can't be dismissed by saying 'This never happens'. or 'TWAW'

It was my husband who explored this with her a week or so back after she's asked what he'd been reading. He could have dodged this one but the book he'd just read was about the Tavistock Institute.

We do now understand that my daughter's views are as strongly held as ever - and the two of us have talked about why she holds them. (In her circle, to admit that there may be some need to balance rights, could mean the loss of some key friendships.) We wouldn't seek any further discussions of current issues out in the political sphere, because we know where she stands.

We are honestly not sure how 'respectful' she is being. Yes, she is respecting herself. But she is not yet at a point where is is possible for her to admit that her parents views might also be the product of reflection, discussion and our own experience. We have both spent decades working with vulnerable and marginalised people.

At present neither of us feel it is right agree to some kind of uncompromising blanket ban, on what we can and cannot talk about in our own home. Both of us are very concerned to keep the lines of communication open, with our loved daughter and shall work hard to do so.

OP posts:

burnoutbabe · 05/05/2023 09:28

I can sort of see why you wouldn't discuss the views.

But discussing/mentioning the fact you lost your job, which seems completely illegal by the company should be a topic that should be allowed to be discussed. She doesn't have to agree with what you said but surely she should support you in challenging illegal employers?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/05/2023 09:31

Sympathies OP.
As this thread shows, some people think the transitioning of children leading to brutal cosmetic surgery, untested medication and lifelong infertility is great.
Some people think the removal of the rights of women and girls to undress in front of unknown men is great
Some think wedging men into women's sport and them taking women's places, medals and sponsorships is great
Some people think sacking women from jobs if they dare to say anything that challenges the above is great.

Many of these people are evidently on this thread.

I suspect the reason your daughter is refusing to acknowledge that there are two sides to this issue is because she has no evidence / arguments to back up why all the above is happening. This is all enforced through intimidation and bullying. Well done for being a role model for your daughter & showing that women should not be silenced by an oppressive ideology that can't tolerate debate. As a mother you have my sympathy. I'd be reassuring your daughter that you love her unconditionally but as a woman you have the moral and legal right to stand up to bullying and that's what you're doing.

FatFucker · 05/05/2023 09:55

Completely understand where you're coming from. It's your house and you can talk about what you want. Especially something that's all encompassing in your work and personal life!

BUT

Like toddlers, choose your battles. My eldest called me a bigot and we had quite an argument several years ago about our conflicting beliefs.

We didn't talk about it for years. However recently he has come round to my way of thinking. Sport, we know it would be the sport that peaked men.

Anyway he is now extremely GC, so there is hope OP.

Good luck. With everything.

dreamingbohemian · 05/05/2023 10:20

I disagree that the daughter is 'refusing to acknowledge there are two sides' -- she is not hounding her mother trying to change her mind or anything like that. Actually by asking that the topic not be discussed, that is her way of saying there ARE two sides, we are on opposite sides, I don't want to keep falling out so let's not discuss it. It's actually a rather mature approach.

OP has loads of support from everyone else in her life. Wouldn't it actually be nice to have a weekend with her daughter and escape from all these very stressful things? Just enjoy your time together.

burnoutbabe · 05/05/2023 10:28

but the daughter is on the side of - its OKAY to lose your job if you say something that I do not agree with?

Sirzy · 05/05/2023 10:35

She knows there is a difference of views so is taking the mature approach of agreeing to not discuss things that will make things harder for your relationship.

it seems your so absorbed in your view being right your risking your relationship with your daughter over it.

LateNightsByTheLake · 05/05/2023 10:44

If this was just a difference of opinion in general, TWAW vs GC, I’d agree to not bringing up the topic for the sake of your relationship.

But this ideology is now directly impacting your life and in quite a major way. You can’t not talk about that and I wouldn’t agree to not doing that either. I would tell her that I love her but other things are important to me too. I’d agree to some distance from each other until the case is sorted. I think that’s the best you can do.

I feel for you. I know someone who feels like shes losing her kids to this debate. It’s sad to see intelligent people getting pulled down by this by the pressure they feel from ‘friends’.

dreamingbohemian · 05/05/2023 11:02

Our children are allowed to disagree with us. They are allowed to think we've done something wrong. They are allowed to have their own firmly held beliefs. Especially as they become adults, they are allowed to have their own distinct identity and believe what they want to believe.

The question then becomes: how can we stay close if we disagree so strongly? And the vast majority of people will come up with the solution that the daughter is proposing, let's agree to disagree and not talk about it.

CurlewKate · 05/05/2023 11:09

The problem is- it's absolutely fine to disagree. Absolutely fine to believe each other profoundly wrong. We've done that. But the idea of never talking about such an important subject is just so alien to me. And to know that both my children think, even as we don't talk about it, that I am a bigot, is profoundly heartbreaking.

Original poster

LaGiaconda · 05/05/2023 11:10

When the case first occurred, and I outlined what had happened my daughter did acknowledge that dismissal would be upsetting.

But she also told me that my views were hateful and if I had been working for her, she wouldn't have wanted me as part of her team either

I remained calm at the time and we've continued to talk, visit etc.

But I felt - and continued to feel - quite shocked. had hoped that she had moved on her thinking - because it seemed to me that her views were so harsh. I was surprised that she was so extreme and authoritarian in her thinking, believing that employers had the right to get rid of staff who might simply be expressing ordinary views on social issues outside the workplace.

And I also felt that her reactions didn't/doesn't make sense, because her knowledge of me should be/have been telling her that I don't direct hate towards vulnerable people and that whenever I talked about work matters it would be obvious that I was conscientious and professional.

It is clear to me that she had not moved on.

OP posts:

Farmageddon · 05/05/2023 11:29

pikkumyy77 · 01/05/2023 16:48

The OP asked for support and opinions and I gave her mine. I’m a 62 year old heterosexual, married, white, old school feminist and mother of two daughters. I speak as I find.

As for my observation about the US a variety of high profile murders and attacks on Trans people are quite well documented. You can gooogle and find out right now that a trans legislator has been forced to leave the legislative chamber in her state simply for advocating for her constituents.

The GC movement is an international movement, as is the trans rights movement. We see the same provocative stories, from both perspectives, move swiftly from one country to another. So I think it may be useful for posters here to see the end game for trans people in the admittedly more virulent and violent form anti trans activism takes in the US.

the reason I think its useful is that posters here often seem puzzled by why their children don’t get where they are coming from. It is sometimes because the younger generation gets their information and understanding from different sources and have different values.

I often think that people who say 'I speak as I find' are about to unleash some utter bullshit, and you didn't disappoint...

Ah the old 'google it and you'll see for yourself', this simply means you don't have the evidence you think you have for your ridiculous statements.

And as for the idea that children and young people tend to think differently than adults on this because they have some better understanding and values than we do - FFS. I don't know anyone who genuinely believes they were smarter and had more common sense at 18 than they do at 50.
These children have been brainwashed by social media and a pressure to conform, they don't have the life experience to properly critique this stuff.

Farmageddon · 05/05/2023 11:31

CurlewKate · 05/05/2023 11:09

The problem is- it's absolutely fine to disagree. Absolutely fine to believe each other profoundly wrong. We've done that. But the idea of never talking about such an important subject is just so alien to me. And to know that both my children think, even as we don't talk about it, that I am a bigot, is profoundly heartbreaking.

I'm sorry that must be awful. As a previous poster has stated, one of the aims of this bullshit ideology is to drive a wedge between parents and their children.

One of the best ways to erode safeguarding and boundaries around children is to get them to keep secrets from their parents and guardians, and turn them against eachother, to keep them thinking that these other people understand them better than their parents do. That way the nefarious people pushing this shit have an easier time manipulating them.

TripleDaisySummer · 05/05/2023 11:46

'What's been going on in your life?' 'What's new?' become quite hard to answer. Over the last year I have been routinely doing this avoidance.

But it becomes harder as the case escalates, new emails arrive, meetings get set up etc. Unfortunately litigation does take up a good deal of headspace

I get why it's hurtful and disappointing that you can't get support or understanding from a family member -but it is what it is and currently her view is where it is - not disusing it seems sensible compromise rather than blazing rows and going over the same ground.

So my advice would be to do things when she visiting - local attractions cinema - so there are readily available other topics to talk about and that you are very busy doing things - so it's not temping to talk about what is going on in your life or struggle to find conversation topics when your thoughts are else where.

Keep the relationship going rather than lose another thing in your life - be disappointed but keep it to yourself - but keep the contact with her.

MMMarmite · 05/05/2023 13:06

I still think you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. And being overdramatic, to boot. The topic is not banned "in your own home". She just doesn't want to hear it. Take your partner aside quietly if you desperately want to discuss an email. Or meet somewhere else if you can't handle that.

Neither of you sounds close to changing your viewpoint, so honestly what good will come of forcing the topic? She is offering a truce. Just because she's your daughter you don't own her opinions.

Titerama · 05/05/2023 13:37

It’s your choice OP.

You can agree to not talk about it with your daughter - lots of people manage this sort of topic filtering, and it’s not beyond you to do it for the time she’s with you. This is easy, and can be done right away.

Or you can wait for her to change her views to the ones you think are right, and insist on talking to her about your views and trying to convince her. This is not likely to resolve things any time soon, if ever, and in the meantime you’ll be putting more and more distance in to the relationship.

What make your life even more stressful by forcing a falling out with your daughter?

You don’t agree, but you can’t make her think your way - especially not by dismissing her point of view as youthful foolishness, extreme and authoritarian.

SweetSakura · 05/05/2023 16:12

I think it's such a shame that you read all these responses -from people who I think are all GC themselves - and your reaction is to just dig your heels in and refuse to shift your position.

I really think you should take some time to reconsider what really matters here.

I think it would be a tremendous shame, and entirely on you, if you lost a relationship with your daughter over this. It's not worth it, it really isn't.

TooBigForMyBoots · 05/05/2023 16:21

OP, you know your daughter's views on this topic. You want her to come, but what do you want her to do on her visit? Argue with you, increasing your stress? Or silence herself and lie to you?

SammyScrounge · 06/05/2023 01:55

LaGiaconda · 01/05/2023 13:03

I should stress that I am not trying to change my daughter's mind. I would simply prefer to be able to offer her occasional brief factual updates about something important that is going on iny life. Rather as if I were going through, for example, a medical procedure.

And while for some losing work might seem 'extreme, I would agree it is an extreme situation where Tweeting about one's view that single sex spaces are in some contexts important results in a) instant dismissal and b) bizarrely, not even telling me they had got rid of me.

I think I would feel betrayed if my daughter didn't show an interest in my being unfairly dismissed for holding a lawful opinion. I would expect some moral support when going to court about it. These are major and stressful events in anyone's life and she has abandoned you.
It sounds as if she has succumbed to trans indoctrination which makes you out to be a monstrous villain/bigot/genocide planning Nazi..
Well, you can't fix stupid. If she dreams of a future where people are punished for wrong -think and where children can be hijacked out of their parents' care for possible unnecessary medical intervention then Hell mend her on the day they come for her child and there is no one left to fight for her.
In the meantime try and accept that she will give you no understanding or comfort through your ordeal. Accept too that your relationship with her has been altered for good and stop worrying about it - what you are trying to achieve in court means employment protection for everyone, including her.
I would not have her coming to visit me if she's setting conditions and ignoring the stress you are under. Your focus for the moment must be on yourself and your court case. She can sit at home and hug.her principles to herself. You have more important things to do and I wish you all the best.⁸

MsRosley · 06/05/2023 17:13

cosmiccosmos · 01/05/2023 13:46

I think this shows a lack of maturity on your daughters part. I agree that it is wrong of her to tell you what she will accept discussing in your home. After all she just needs to say 'look Mum I'm struggling with this and don't want to talk about it'.

She is the one who doesn't seem able to compromise. What a shame she isn't showing you any support at all.

100% this.

MsRosley · 06/05/2023 17:21

Delphinium20 · 02/05/2023 23:11

OP, I am sorry but I would encourage you to keep a good relationship with your daughter even if some topics are temporarily off the table.

Trans people in the US are losing their jobs, losing representation, and losing their lives at a horrifying rate thanks to out and proud attacks on their right to live unmolested in public spaces.

This is most decidedly untrue.

I only have US data, but I think it's relevant as we know male pattern violence has similar trends around the world. Please note that the US has a much higher murder rate but take of it what you will. I pulled the following to give context to this reporting www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/nation/report-says-at-least-32-transgender-people-were-killed-in-the-u-s-in-2022

Rates are per 100,000

There were 24,576 recorded homicides in 2022. 1,011 of these murders were children under the age of 14. A rate of 1.7

4,618 women were murdered in the US in 2022. A rate of 2.8

19,958 men were murdered in the US in 2022. A rate of 12.3

332 Native American men were murdered in the US in 2022. A rate of 13.5.

11,935 Black men were murdered in the US in 2022. That's a rate of 52.7!!!!

Native American men make up roughly 1.4% of the US population. Pew Research in 2021 found that about 1.6% of US adults are transgender or non-binary. So similar sized populations.

Compare 32 trans people murdered vs 332 Native Men for a similar sized population.

My very rough math is putting the murder rate of transwomen to about 1.28 so BELOW the rate of women being murdered and FAR below the rates of male populations.

The murder rate for US children ages 0-14 per 100k is 1.7.

Trans people and non-binary people are SAFER than children in the US.

www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

And what is so often ignored is very few of these trans people were murdered for being trans. Usually they're murdered by their partner, or they are involved in very risky sex work.

whathaveiforgottentoday · 07/05/2023 02:37

I think sometimes as a parent who have to stand your ground on issues who believe in. You can say you love your children whatever they believe, but you shouldn't be expected to be have to compromise your views. My argue
My argument with my children is that I am educated (masters) and I read widely beyond my specialist subject, so they are welcome to discuss any issue with me. I welcome alll views.

whathaveiforgottentoday · 07/05/2023 02:41

To clarify, No topic should be off the table. Be the fucking adult. Stand your ground for what you know to be true.

Justme56 · 07/05/2023 11:34

OP I am sorry you are going through this. I don't believe your views are bigoted in any shape or form. This is a post on the other board at the moment regarding a swimming pool incident, where a TW who is an obvious male has demanded access to a ladies changing room, having walked in on a group of ladies showering. The room has open showers and no individual cubicles. It appears that the organisation are not willing to do much about this. I personally am disgusted about the consequences on women of allowing any male to access spaces reserved for their privacy and dignity.

dreamingbohemian · 07/05/2023 12:10

whathaveiforgottentoday · 07/05/2023 02:37

I think sometimes as a parent who have to stand your ground on issues who believe in. You can say you love your children whatever they believe, but you shouldn't be expected to be have to compromise your views. My argue
My argument with my children is that I am educated (masters) and I read widely beyond my specialist subject, so they are welcome to discuss any issue with me. I welcome alll views.

But the OP isn't being asked to change her views. Her daughter acknowledges that these are her views but as they so completely disagree, is suggesting they let it lie, so they do not fall out.

It has nothing to do with education, or intelligence -- I find it dismaying, all the comments on this thread implying that people who disagree with GC are stupid or brainwashed. Labelling those who disagree with us as stupid is a surefire way to alienate people and, indeed, to lead them to ask not to discuss things anymore.

I have a PhD. I work with a colleague, who also has a PhD, who has what I consider to be extremist views. Education and intelligence has nothing to do with it, we just see the world completely differently.
We manage to work together because we have acknowledged our differences and agreed not to discuss them. If I can do that for 10 years, I'm sure the OP can get through a weekend.