Struggling with trans friend

[Llamallamadingdong]

I have a friend (male) who has decided that they are actually female.

They’ve felt this way for many years now and confided in me and have not told anyone else. Recently had their first gender clinic appointment and have been told that the clinic will not help until they have at least tried to present as female (so far they have messed about with some clothes and makeup alone at home but never gone out in public)

Anyway they recently approached me and asked if I would help pick an outfit, do makeup and help with hair and then go out with them trying to present as female.

The problem is I just can’t do it. Fundamentally I don’t truly believe that we can change sex and I feel like I’m supporting a weird fantasy. Not sure what I want from this thread, I seem to be the only GC person in my friendship group and I feel like I’m a horrible person for potentially denying someone something they really want.

Women are not men's support humans.

Just because you are a friend doesn't mean you should indulge their sexism and lack of respect for women.

Women are ALLOWED to see demands by men to 'treat them as women' as sexist.

The idea that someone is the same person falls apart with the very demand to be 'treated as the opposite sex'. It's literally asking you to treat them as a different person.

It's rewriting the terms and boundaries of the friendship and expecting someone else to adhere to that. It's asking for you to behave in an inherently sexist way!

This does not work for women. It asks us to regressively reinforce sexist gender stereotypes. It harms us.

Give him your honest opinion. Its kind of rude he expects you to be cool with all the abuse hes gonna get.Dude you look like a guy, people are gonna look at you when you start wearing skirts.
Its kind of embarrassing for me , wish you all the best,
Lots of love

If you had a tiny anorexic friend convinced she was overweight would you go along with her delusions and go and buy plus sized clothes with her or clothes that would help her hide her imaginary fat?

I am involved in this situation as a Mum of a son and I am non-affirming. Been in the trenches of trans ideation for almost 4 years with grave concerns with online harm previously. The aggression is common as I have felt from my son and links to the cult like belief system and ideology of "trans". Underlying is likely to be some form of trauma, rejection/bullying or something else they will not disclose which could be linked to fantasy/erotica etc. There could also be autism and adhd. Social affirmation is not a neutral act so I would personally sit down and explain that only women are women and you recognise that he is seeking your help however from your limited understanding of gender concerns, approaching a neutral therapist first is best. This is a link for therapy guidance is aimed at children and young people but a non-affirming therapist is best GETAClinicalGuide2022.pdf . Hope this helps

social transition is not a neutral act in these cases unfortunately. If this is his truth he can start doing things for himself and order online and discuss on the many many MtF forums. Its the acceptance by women as "a woman" that he seeks and doing "womanly things". We are not enablers for men.

To be honest, shopping in person is impossible anyway. I've tried a few times in the last year and nothing is in stock. They just tell you to order online. The only place that does have clothes reliably is mountain warehouse, so maybe start there if you do go ahead with it. I certainly wouldn't bother with changing rooms though, just buy in the size and take back later if it doesn't fit.

I think I'd struggle too OP. However, it's worth mentioning that this forum leans very strongly towards the gender critical side so the replies will reflect that.

I don't believe humans can change sex and I think individuals should use the toilet of their birth sex. However, a lot of posters feel so strongly about these points and are so deadlocked in combat with the TRA contingent that they entirely dismiss gender dysphoria as a sexual fetish/mental illness.

In truth there's not yet any scientific certainty that transgenderism is any more an illness than homosexuality is. Neither can yet be fully explained and there are several studies which have observed trends in brain differences in both - lack of pre natal testosterone in gay men and brains that typically share more similarities with the average female brain than most 'cis' males do in the case of transwomen. People will tell you these studies have been debunked but I've never seen anyone provide any sources to back that claim up (happy to be corrected though).

But you don't have to do anything you're not comfortable with. Certainly the average male would be uncomfortable about attending a gay bar for their friend to 'come out' in public and that's fine. But it's possible that your friend is genuine and there may even be an innate biological reason for him feeling that way even if he can't really change sex.

This is a tough situation, but the fact that he is being aggressive about it is possibly a red flag.

It doesn't matter what your political position is - transitioning is still a choice. The medicines are not designed to treat the underlying cause (i.e. mental discomfort) and the surgery is elective and for cosmetic purposes only.

You do not have to support this choice, it is reasonable to reject trans ideology and psuedo-medicine and still care about your friend. If you feel up to it, I would be honest about your reasons, with compassion that it may cause them pain, but draw that boundary now.

I hate the fact that I am being forced to take a stance on this. We had a cheesecake day at work today and my gay colleague wanted to make it a "rainbow" day. However the only two cheesecakes lefts where the rainbow ones. Noone else bought a politically motivated cake in- they just can't see they are alienating most people.

I'd just say "Sorry mate, wouldn't know where to start with that."

Why should OP accept someone bullying her into doing something just because it’s a man claiming to be a woman. What would you say to OP if it was someone bullying her into going to a craft club, or and
other activity and not taking no for an answer? Why should OP be forced to participate in this man’s delusion

Then why not ask the friends who do believe TWAW. Why persist in bullying the only one who does not believe that. It’s for the same reason trans identifying males won’t use unisex spaces. It’s the thrill of knowing they have power over non consenting women. And belie I get the “you don’t know transpeople”, I do. I was in an abusive relationship with one for many many years. I was gaslit. I was bullied. And he admitted the thrill was I didn’t believe TW were women and he got off on trying to force me to accept that.

Tell the person that although you are a woman, you hate shopping and would never enjoy doing make up etc on another person.
Don't start being the support person if you can not sustain it.
They need to be comfortable with their own ideas of themselves and what they look like.

Gosh what a grim thread. Wish I hadn't clicked on it.

Interesting that he asked you
The only GC person in your friendship group
Deliberate I wonder

It's a funny thing but when men decide they are "trans", they often become more openly aggressive and assertively self-centred in a very male kind of way.

They believe that because they are "now ladies" they can't be accused of toxic masculinity, so can be as toxic as they like.

Your friend seems to be going down that path and the most sensible response would be to make the friendship a distant one, pronto.

You're in the right place here op because mumsnet is as transphobic as you so you'll get lots of posts agreeing with you although I don't agree. If a friend of mine needed help then I'd help them, hope your trans friend has better friends than you to support her.

I know. Watching some people berate the OP for refusing to be bullied into becoming an emotional support human for a man is grim. Especially on a feminist board.

I was on a day out yesterday in a busy city and I don’t think I saw many ‘outfits’.
A lady sitting opposite me in the train had a sort of lace covered jacket and skirt but she’d have been 70+.
Women were in T shirts and trousers, Asian women in long straight coat things and scarves and there was a few long dresses.

I think it's highly unlikely OP has voiced her GC beliefs to him.

It's also entirely possible that he genuinely feels like a woman and is just frustrated that nobody wants to support him in doing what he's been told he must do to receive medical assistance. It sounds like the clinic's ultimatum is the driving force here.

In all the grimness of this situation, this has really made me laugh. It’s also very true. Can you imagine taking him to Mountain Warehouse and picking out a basic navy fleece and a pair of walking shorts? Love it.

If he’s asking OP to do ‘girly’ things with him then the issue is (as the hardened GC know) not about a friendly and gentle introduction into the world of ‘womanhood’ (vomit) but rather the feelings he gets in making other people indulge in his make-believe. I would not be accompanying my male friends into a female toilet. I have never helped my friends with shopping and make up - we do it ourselves because we are grown ups. If a friend,either sex, asked me to do this I’d be like ‘nah. Not my thing.’

Interesting you're the only GC person in your friendship group and he's told you about his secret fetish. He knows I suspect and this is a test. He wants you to indulge him and if you do, knowing your GC will be a great kick for him.

And before somebody asks me what 'feeling like a woman' is, I think it's entirely possible that it's also a thing.

Even accounting for the variance between individuals there are broad differences between the male and female brains. Testosterone alone has a huge impact and men who abuse steroids experience a heightened sense of 'maleness' - hugely increased aggression/sex drive/assertiveness/risk taking.

Most women feel a little othered when they're the only female in a big group of men. The dynamic is massively different and this is biology as much as social conditioning. Somebody possessing a brain that has more similarities with typical female brains than the average man does might also sense themselves to be somewhat different from most men.

She should've realised that on this sub his gender matters more than whether he's a friend or not.

That's a good idea.