Struggling with trans friend

[Llamallamadingdong]

I have a friend (male) who has decided that they are actually female.

They’ve felt this way for many years now and confided in me and have not told anyone else. Recently had their first gender clinic appointment and have been told that the clinic will not help until they have at least tried to present as female (so far they have messed about with some clothes and makeup alone at home but never gone out in public)

Anyway they recently approached me and asked if I would help pick an outfit, do makeup and help with hair and then go out with them trying to present as female.

The problem is I just can’t do it. Fundamentally I don’t truly believe that we can change sex and I feel like I’m supporting a weird fantasy. Not sure what I want from this thread, I seem to be the only GC person in my friendship group and I feel like I’m a horrible person for potentially denying someone something they really want.

We don’t have a ‘root cause’ as such but we have proven that it is innate and not a mental illness.

Post the proof then.

I think what you mean is that society has decided it's innate. Similar to how they almost decided transwomen were women. Nobody really knows for certain at this point.

So why is society now deciding that transwomen are not in fact women?

I’m not sure society decided that TW were women, though. Lots of people pretended they thought it, and lots of people didn’t want to say no to men or to be “unkind”, but that’s not the same thing.

I think what you mean is that society has decided it's innate. Similar to how they almost decided transwomen were women. Nobody really knows for certain at this point.

Are you actually serious?? That’s not remotely what I mean - have you even spoken to a gay person? I think you’ll find that they think for themselves, they haven’t had the innateness of their sexuality ‘decided’ for them by society.

Are you further suggesting that homosexuality ISN’T innate? And countless people have suffered for nothing because it can be ‘cured’?

I suggest you look at the vast amounts of research on this and if you want a brutal example, consider why people in the more brutal, homophobic religious regimes die for being homosexual.

And no, ‘society’ didn’t almost decide that ‘transwomen’ were women - that was a result of a clandestine and concerted campaign over 20-30 years by some powerful men who wish they were women and their enablers.

Because they're not. Surely you didn't ever believe they were?

I think some men decided trans women are women and some pick-me women went along with it.

The rest of us were just told to get with the programme.

Well, mental illness is kind of innate in some cases. Many conditions are hereditary/genetic. And when scientists talk about homosexuality 'not being a choice' they're often referring to factors that are....hereditary and genetic.

I'm not conflating the two though. They're entirely different things, one of which is proven to be hereditary/genetic in some instances and another which may be but isn't 100% proven to be.

Outside of the small number of trans individuals (relatively speaking) it's mainly women that support the trans lobby from what I can see. The same demographic that supported things like Pride. Straight men generally care a lot less about identity politics than straight women do.

Why have you brought mental illness into this? Is this In relation to homosexuality or transgenderism? Or are we playing chase the squirrel?

and another which may be but isn't 100% proven to be. I assume you are now talking about transgenderism.

To ask my question for about the fourth time, what do you think needs to happen to ‘100% prove it’ over and above what we already know?

Haven't had time to read the whole thread so apologies op. But I'm a woman and I wouldn't have any interest in going shopping for makeup and dresses etc, I dress in trousers etc, wouldn't have a clue about girly clothes or lipsticks so I'd say I'm out on that basis. I do wonder what the clinic means when it says presenting as female, as if being female means wearing red lipstick, having long hair and wearing a dress?!? You're in an awkward position but your friend seems quite manipulative and bullying, aside from the trans thing, so I'd be backing off from them slightly I think and saying you can't help.

The trans lobby acts for the benefit and in the interest of men though.

Women were never the ones actively pushing for men to access our single sex spaces. The reasons why some women are keen to go along with it are sad and complex, but let's get real, it wasn't their idea.

@Crackdown96 you're misquoting posters, conflating theories, bending studies to fit your narrative and generally not making much sense. I politely suggest you go get some air and in the meantime the rest of us will crack on with our day in the safe knowledge that a man can never become a woman, whilst ignoring your increasingly incoherent spoutings.

Ive never believed that humans can change sex or even that certain people should be treated as though they were the opposite sex just because that’s what they want.
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You seemed to be implying that society was going down the route of giving trans people the legal rights of their chosen sex because being trans is a real physically based phenomenon rather than a mental disorder or sexual fetish.

I wonder if sexuality and 'gender identity' are indeed innate - or if it develops very early as a direct result of early experiences and influences?

I don't mean sexual experiences, rather everything else a child experiences in their life.

Eddie Izzard has said he knew when he was 5. But this was the age he was when his mother died - so surely that's key?

Dad's mother told how her elder son went missing in a department store aged 2 - and was found sitting happily on the knee of the sailor who'd found him. She always said that's how she knew.

Trying to remember back now. I do recall earliest aged 6 being very taken with two boys at school but don't know why it should be boys not girls (or both).

Then about 10 being obsessed with a kids' TV series Ace of Wands (anybody?) and the very 1970s male lead (who might appear quite camp now!). Then about 11 it was Captain Kirk and the Alias Smith and Jones chaps. Then at 13 Starsky and Hutch hit and so on.

Side note - all my TV crushes were actors in their 30s rather than pop star boys, from my earliest awareness 🤔

Same-sex attraction and gender non-conforming behaviour both exist across many societies and historic periods. What doesn't exist across all societies is trans identification.

And same-sex attraction (orientation) appears to be innate and not easily influenced from outside, whereas there are several very different paths to trans identification. Some of the common pathways are clearly socially determined (ROGD) and others are "learned" or more accurately acquired through reinforcement (fetishes) Others are "problem-solving" pathways where transition is chosen as the best explanation and solution to issues that might be innate but even so they might be more correctly safely and reliably resolved in other ways.

The person who put it best is Paul Vasey, the researcher who studied Fa'afafine. Fa'afafine in Samoa knew that they are men living "after the manner of" women and did not consider themselves "really" women (he asked them.) Closest Western approximation is probably effeminate gay men. Vasey said that looking for transwomen in Samoa is as pointless as looking for Fa'Afafine in the US. Transgender is a culture-bound phenonomen and it has been spread with Western culture.

As for Eddie Izzard, most children who "know" when they are 5 have changed their minds by 15. And it may be that what Izzard "knew" at 5 is very different from what Izzard "knows" now. People re-interpret their past and make up patterns and narratives and leave out the bits that don't fit.

(Not much help to the OP though!)

I invite you to read the thread.

I agree, but it is women driving all the 'be kind' nonsense IME. I work in a predominantly male sector and I've never heard a bloke talking about any of this stuff. And they're pretty outspoken in the type of environments I'm in (construction etc).

I went on a first aid course the other week run by three women. Somehow the topic of transgenderism came up and they were all like "oo, people should be allowed to just be themselves. So many people today can't just live and let live. I've no problem with a man presenting as female, happy to be inclusive" etc.

I wonder if sexuality and 'gender identity' are indeed innate - or if it develops very early as a direct result of early experiences and influences?

I don't mean sexual experiences, rather everything else a child experiences in their life.

A lot of scientists think it's a myriad of reasons including early experiences.

I wasn't at all implying that.

I was saying that all the changing rooms stuff has no bearing on whether being trans has a genuine cognitive cause or not, and most people push the idea of it being a mental illness simply because they're hugely invested in the fight for women's rights.

I stated that attitudes towards homosexuality have drastically changed over the past few decades despite there not really being any greater scientific explanation than there is for transgenderism. The affirmation of gay people is not unlike the affirmation of trans people was my point. However, with the latter there is more resistance simply because the trans lobby are taking the piss with their demands.

That's what I'm saying.

So you can’t answer to my questions and can’t justify your claim which you are still repeating.

No problem, you could just say you can’t.

I’m not a scientist but it occurs to me that ‘homosexual behaviour’ exists in other mammals- in inverted commas because of course sexuality is a human construct, and not of interest to animals. But it does lend credence to the idea that it can just be a normal behaviour for an animal- something biologically driven and innate. It is an observable behaviour because animals have been witnessed having sexual activity with other animals of the same sex.

Whereas the idea of transgenderism in non-human animals is surely meaningless because ‘gender’ is meaningless to animals. They’re just existing either as males or females.

Plus, as has been pointed out, we already know that some trans people are AGPs, some are autistic, some have internalised homophobia, some have had trauma, many have a whole host of other MH issues/neurodivergence/personality disorders.

So it seems unlikely that it’s innate or biological when there are such a wide range of people who have issues that make it very obvious why they would choose a trans identity.

However, with the latter there is more resistance simply because the trans lobby are taking the piss with their demands

What is your basis for claiming transgenderism is innate like homosexuality? Are you suggesting that the idea that men are really women ‘inside’ is any more believable if the men were behaving?

As far as I can see, trans identifying females (transmen) are generally behaving in a far less demanding way and causing far less harm to society. Do we believe that their identities are any more innate than the men?

What about detransitioners?

The worrying issue that has gone under the radar for quite some time is the fact that it’s difficult to distinguish who is doing it to gratify a fetish I.e. autogynephilia and who is genuine.

Transitioning and changing your gender has largely been unregulated. If you don’t “qualify” for the procedure in this country, there is nothing to stop you having the surgery and obtaining the hormones abroad. For me, this poses such a safeguarding and security threat. It means we could have a large number of people changing their sex for the wrong reasons, or who pose a threat.

It’s good to talk about and discuss all of this in my opinion. These are really important factors that we all need to and ought to be considering.

You keep asking questions which are addressed by my previous posts - multiple times!

"Why are you bringing homosexuality into this?

Read my post further up this page. I'm not explaining it a fourth time.

"What do you think needs to happen to ‘100% prove it’ over and above what we already know?"

Have a think about how medical or psychological conditions are proven. There was a time when people often thought an epileptic fit was caused by bewitchment. What changed?

I'm not going to explain this to you like you're five years old.

What is your basis for claiming transgenderism is innate like homosexuality?

That's an odd question to ask considering you've quoted my comment about homosexuality "not having any greater scientific explanation than there is for transgenderism".

If you took it as me saying it's innate then perhaps you can post the comment you're referring to and I'll try and explain what I meant.