Struggling with trans friend

[Llamallamadingdong]

I have a friend (male) who has decided that they are actually female.

They’ve felt this way for many years now and confided in me and have not told anyone else. Recently had their first gender clinic appointment and have been told that the clinic will not help until they have at least tried to present as female (so far they have messed about with some clothes and makeup alone at home but never gone out in public)

Anyway they recently approached me and asked if I would help pick an outfit, do makeup and help with hair and then go out with them trying to present as female.

The problem is I just can’t do it. Fundamentally I don’t truly believe that we can change sex and I feel like I’m supporting a weird fantasy. Not sure what I want from this thread, I seem to be the only GC person in my friendship group and I feel like I’m a horrible person for potentially denying someone something they really want.

Trying to get a woman involved with this may have ulterior motives. Be careful it's not just him escalating.

Your core values are what matter here @Llamallamadingdong . If we don't have core values and boundaries then life becomes very diffficult. Friends come and go but we have to live with ourselves and beliefs.

Well. You’ve very clearly demonstrated my point, thank you.

’I couldn't be friends with a Reform voter because they possibly have racist views, are a lot more right-wing than I'm comfortable with and hold views I regard as hostile towards immigration. Likewise, someone might think a JC supporter supports terrorism and is anti Europe and can't comprehend those POV.’*

Possibly. Might think. Can’t comprehend. Someone I regard as being a bigot.

All demonstrate a lack of nuance and critical analysis. It’s much easier to think oh you vote reform oh you’re a bigot oh we are not friends. Rather than discuss it and look deeper, ask questions and try to understand what a person thinks and why.

Probably is a word that means absolutely Nothing. And so on.

*It’s actually bigoted to think that way.

I know a number of trans people. I have had a very honest conversation with one about certain things. He knew my position before he transitioned. It was healthy and productive for both parties.

The idea that you can't be friends with someone because you have different views is alien to me. I will happily talk to and socialise with a very wide range of people. It's healthy and you learn stuff.

Where I have a problem, is where people don't respect your position and think it ok to bully you and try and guilt you.

It's not so much about beliefs. It's about behaviour and wanting to impose / control others.

One of the problems with trans activism is it has a lot of people who support it who actively work to bully, coerce and shame and say this behaviour in others is ok.

It's not ok.

It's about behaviour not identity.

There are a great many women on Mumsnet who have child, partners, siblings or parents who have transitioned and have experienced emotional abuse and they have no where else to express this because they are automatically labelled 'transphobic'. That's just not right. No collective group is perfect.

The trouble with trans identity is that this pattern of behaviour is actively encouraged by the politics surrounding it - so there's no way to easily challenge unacceptable behaviour. And because of the politics around it, it now actively attracts men who find the ability to do this under the protection of the shield of guilt and shame. So it's become very much a toxic bubble.

As I stress the problem is NOT about identity. It's about behaviour that would be unacceptable in any other situation.

The litmus test here is "if a woman did this, how would I react". If you are treating a trans identifying man differently to a woman, then they aren't living as a woman. Equally if a woman did the same thing and you wouldn't tolerate it, then you don't tolerate it because of the super shiny cloak of 'bekind'.

I'm willing to bet, the OP doesn't go on shopping trips with her besties. So why is she compelled to suddenly do it for this man? It's forcing the OP to change her behaviour to match the mans social expectations of what women do, when it's not true.

And there is a reality that no matter how kind you are, they never can change sex. This creates a problem because many develop a dependency on validation from others to compensate for that and being constantly reassured that they are women - whilst at the same time, women are not allowed to be honest and say
"well actually since you are 6'2" and shaped in a particular way, it doesn't matter what advice I give you about clothes, make up or hair you'll still never pass. I just wear what I like and feel comfortable in and that's why I wear jeans and a t-shirt and frankly I've never bothered with makeup because it ruins your skin".

A true friend would say that. But because of the dynamics which the ops friend is displaying, it's clear he's not going to want that and respect that. So he's already driving a bulldozer through the friendship, not her. Someone who wants a friend to merely be a yes man (or woman) isn't displaying healthy behaviour.

We need to recognise that women saying "no" isn't hate. It's not being unsupportive. You CAN be supportive but it mustn't be at the end of threats and relies on mutual respect. If a trans friend values his friendships he needs to understand that the women around him are allowed to be honest, critical and say no if they feel it's appropriate and it's not because they hate or are transphobic. It's because they are treating them like they would anyone else and they are still able to say "stop being a twat and an emotional vampire" if appropriate. Being supportive is NOT being someone else personal bodyguard nor is it being their therapist.

And it STILL doesn't change the point that you can't change sex and women are LEGALLY allowed to have a boundary based on their biological sex.

The fact we CAN'T have this conversation IS the ENTIRE problem.

Well there you go. Wants to be a woman but hanging on for dear life at the aggression and advantages in life that being male gives him.

If I was you, and really cared I would point out that in the UK, where I am assuming you are, many women dress in trainers, jeans and t shirts, use little or no make up and still have no issues in knowing that they are , and being recognised as women. He has some weird fetish view of what women look like, think, believe and behave and wants a real women to toddle alongside him to act as a human shield and assure him that he is doing being a woman properly.

Do NOT bring gay people into this. To get equal rights we didn't threaten to punch, rape or kill people, we didn't demand that everyone kowtow to us, we didn't insist that children were gay because a girl liked playing football or a boy wanted to do ballet. LGB has divorced the TQ+ and completely rejects the force-teaming to which we've been subjected from captured individuals and groups, and utterly toxic organisations like the odious Stonewall.

And if he'd pointed out (very justifiably) that lots of women wear jeans and a t-shirt, and asked them if they were suggesting that it is necessary to wear feminine clothes to be a woman, I wonder what they'd have said.

I'm confused...presumably he wants stereotypically female clothes like dresses, skirts, and pretty tops?

Absolutely!

Keep kicking it down the road and hope that eventually he’ll get the message and ask someone else.

Don't we all recognise that it's not mandatory to wear those things to be considered female, but that skirts, dresses etc are uniquely female clothes? Lots of women wear jeans, T-shirts, and hoodies, but skirts and dresses are particularly feminine clothing. Both those statements can be true.

Skirts and dresses are not female, but are female-coded.

But men can wear them too (see Billy Porter, David Beckham, Kurt Cobain, back in the day people like David Bowie).

Not rtft but as a compromise what about online shopping?

Men can. There is no Fashion Police. But you don't generally walk down the street and see throngs of men wearing skirts and dresses, do you.

Female/female-coded = semantics. I think 99.99 percent of people would agree that skirts and dresses are female clothing. Or feminine clothing.

You’ve inadvertently revealed that you yourself don’t believe OP’s friend’s situation has anything to do with being a woman @Peachesandcream1000

In a sense you're right, that wmen do get pressurised to conform to societal expectations of female people. When I got told by my friends in sixth form that I "had to" start shaving my legs that was one example. Along with my mother telling me "you'll never catch a man if you don't wear make up". This is what Simone de Beauvoir was talking about.

But these are examples of sexist expectations placed ON women - if they hadn't ALREADY known I was a woman then none of these things would have happened.

And I don't think either my friends or my mother thought I would stop being female if I didn't do these things. They just thought I'd be a sad lonely old hag.

female clothing. Or feminine clothing
These are two different things. That's my point. Clothes like dresses and skirts are certainly feminine (or female-coded). But clothes don't have a biological sex, so they're not female.

I do agree that this man who is asking to be taken shopping to buy clothes that will allow him to 'present as a woman' almost certainly has in mind things like skirts and dresses, and heels.

I'd argue a lot of clothes are cut for female forms though. If they're good clothes they have darts in all the right places.

Forget the trans element.
If a female friend was nagging and bullying you like this, would you be feeling particularly up for spending a day shopping with her over everything else you have to do?

Do you even do "girly days" where you do each others makeup and pick clothes together with your female friends? I know I don't! You don't owe a trans friend more than anyone else just because they're trans.

Either say its not for me and you'd be better off asking someone who enjoys all that, or carry on as you have been, perhaps with a slightly blunter "look X I realise this means a lot to you but I'm really busy at the moment. I don't have the time to do a big girly make up sesh with anyone. If my own sister/mum/best friend asked me to do a girly day shopping I'd be saying no to them too. I think you'd be better off asking someone else who has the capacity to support you."

Alternatively "X, sorry for making excuses, if im honest, all this has made me question my own gender and I'm concerned a day focused on make up and clothes will exacerbate my dysphoria. I know you of all people will understand."
Trans top trumps, can't argue with that!

I think you know as well as I that getting angry when women say no is a very entitled male thing to do.

End this friendship, it will only get more toxic.

…apart from countries where djelabas (sp?), sarongs or even kilts are commonly worn by men.
Having your legs covered in individual tubes of fabric or a single tube of fabric are not specifically male or female.

Tell him that instead of going shopping you think he just needs to tell the clinic that he has been living as a woman - a woman who mainly wears jeans and t-shirts, no make and has short hair. Plenty of women live like that. The clinic sound like they have a very stereotypical view of what a woman is and are passing that on to anyone who considers themselves trans. Basically you have to put on a performance or we're not interested! It's too bizarre for words.

Of course the whole thing falls apart when you start questioning it because of course it is all a load of nonsense based on stereotypes. Oh and of course it's just not possible to change sex.

I couldn't be friends with a Reform voter, for example in the same way many couldn't be friends with a Jeremy Corbyn supporter

You'll find that most gender-critical/sex-realist people are not aligned with either left or right on this issue. Most of us are on the side of reason, empirical reality and ethically crucial concepts like children's rights and women's sex-based rights.

I used to align myself with the left, but as a rational humanist I find that these days, the left is as likely to be burdened with irrational and ethically bankrupt dogma as the right, so I keep a safe distance from any such factional alignments. Especially as the pressure to conform and embrace NO DEBATE is sending the left down a similar fascist rabbit hole as the far right.

On the left on this issue, the NO DEBATE daleks are heavily reinforced by the BE KIND daleks. The latter, by demanding that we BE KIND to men who insist they are women, are certainly not being kind to women and children. Or indeed to the men themselves, who don't actually benefit from us humouring their unhappy fantasies.

I would ask why on earth he thought I'd want to do something for them if he is going to treat me like that and then just not contact again

So he's asked you, the only openly GC person in your friendship group, and gets angry when you can't drop everything and take him shopping... see that manipulative bullshit for what it is OP