Struggling with trans friend

[Llamallamadingdong]

I have a friend (male) who has decided that they are actually female.

They’ve felt this way for many years now and confided in me and have not told anyone else. Recently had their first gender clinic appointment and have been told that the clinic will not help until they have at least tried to present as female (so far they have messed about with some clothes and makeup alone at home but never gone out in public)

Anyway they recently approached me and asked if I would help pick an outfit, do makeup and help with hair and then go out with them trying to present as female.

The problem is I just can’t do it. Fundamentally I don’t truly believe that we can change sex and I feel like I’m supporting a weird fantasy. Not sure what I want from this thread, I seem to be the only GC person in my friendship group and I feel like I’m a horrible person for potentially denying someone something they really want.

Oh I DO understand it.

Trust me I do.

So so so many women report the same things. It's a pattern.

And yes unfortunately, despite everything, you still can't change sex.

But what is second nature? Head tilts? Giggles? I’m honestly trying to understand what you mean by ‘presenting as a woman’. I don’t get what you mean, and you obviously think it means something because you are suggesting this man can learn to do it.

So…..

Sue is a 5 foot 3 inch woman, she went through female puberty and looks like the average European woman ( as she is of European heritage). But she feels that she is really a man, and would like to be treated as a man by all her male friends. The world ‘ 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Of course!

Sue asks her friend Dave to take her clothes shopping, she wants to go Burtons to maybe get a dress suit and some ties, also she would like some advice about shaving products….Dave 🙀😹

Of course this parody doesn’t work, because the mens clothes won’t fit, Sue would know anyway that she could just get the James Meade and Joesph Turner catalogues and have a browse , or she could just put her jeans and tee shirt on anyway and … a man! But I very much doubt that Dave’s friends at the rugby club would be shaming him and telling him he should have gone along with it, or offering to take Sue shopping themselves.

We all know why.

100% agree.
I'm sure I sat in front of a mirror during my early/mid teens, trialling bits from my mum's make up bag and freebies from 'Just 17' and 'Jackie' magazines back in the day 😂to see what worked and what didn't.

These days there is the internet with a billion youtube videos on how to use makeup and clothing styles. Steer him towards that.

OP, he wants you to go shopping with him so that he can 'feel' like he's 'one of the girls'. Which he isn't. Which he'll never be. Even when wearing a dress and lipstick.

Exactly. I learned about hair and make up from magazines and my favourite celebrities. Why can’t they?

Depends how you present it though. If you believe in live and let live, aren't critical, no problem.

If you're of the opinion (as some on here are) that they are sexual perverts or predators, of course you can't be friends.

My thoughts exactly @yayoikusama

Exactly 'how' does one "present as female"...if he were to have rocked up to the clinic in a floral print dress, heels, a bob haircut, nail polish on hand and toe nails, full make up, stockings, lots of jewellery, handbag and lied and said that this is how he dresses on a daily basis, would the clinic have accepted this and moved to the next stage?! I'm scared to think that they may well have done...

Read this and other threads on here. 90% of people participating are in the former category.

I couldn't be friends with a Reform voter because they possibly have racist views, are a lot more right-wing than I'm comfortable with and hold views I regard as hostile towards immigration. Likewise, someone might think a JC supporter supports terrorism and is anti Europe and can't comprehend those POV.

I can absolutely work and be polite and civil with someone I regard as being a bigot. But friends? No.

This is why SOME GC can't be friends with trans people.

Not all of course.

@MarieAndTwinette I found your post patronising and sexist. I was raised as a girl (because I am female). I am nearly 50 now but still don’t know how to ‘present’ as a woman. I AM a woman and people can usually recognise that. I don’t need, and have never needed make-up, dresses or hairstyles to convince people that I’m female. Like many women, I get up in the morning, brush my teeth and put on some leggings and a T shirt. Fashion and grooming doesn’t feature in my life at all, aside from keeping myself clean. And yes, there have been plenty of articles and adverts throughout my life which have attempted to tell me how to prettify myself but I have ignored them because they aren’t at all relevant to me.

What a load of crap. I'm currently wearing a t-shirt, long sleeve top and trousers. Yet I was "raised as a woman". Does that mean I missed the lesson, or did my parents not insisting that I dress in more feminine clothes get it wrong? Am I not presenting myself to the world as a woman? So sick of these ridiculous stereotypes. Clothes do not make males women.

This! What does it all mean? I am a women - I don’t need to present as one. I’ve never been raised to be a woman. I have been taught how to manage my periods, talked about child birth, the effects contraception can have on my body, how to make sure a bra measures correctly... Out of the necessity of being a women.

I have also been taught how to change a tyre, oil, cook, clean, do laundry, do basic DIY. Basically, I was raised to be an independent person. Not how to present as woman as I am one.

My children have been raised the same way. Clothes are clothes, toys are toys. Play with what you like. My DS used to love dressing up in Elsa costumes and feeding his baby. My DD loved wearing her older brothers clothes and minions. They know they are male and female.

Women present as such as that’s who we are. No jeans, T-shirts, dresses or painted nails will make a blind bit of difference. If a man wants to wear a dress, go for it but don’t expect a round of applause or others to then affirm you are now a woman. That is exactly what a sexual fetish looks like.

Haven’t RTWT,
I dislike shopping with my female friends, so the thought of going out and testing make up with anyone puts me right off.
Im a t-shirt and trousers woman myself. I have one pair of heels. Not girly at all, and I don’t understand trans women who think being girly is the way to go.

I bet you could though, if you just had the life experience. If it’s your mum or cousin or your auntie and you know all the good things they do and see them being caring and kind to everyone they meet, you realise people are complicated.

I haven’t worn a dress or make up in years. Maybe I’m not presenting myself properly as a biological female.

I agree it would be very interesting to know exactly what the clinic means by presenting. Although I can guess.

Getting angry at a friend for them explaining they can't do something with you right now is shitty behaviour full stop. I would respond to that rather than that the thing he's asking you to do is making you feel uncomfortable. I suspect he's likely trying to stir trouble in your friendship group and that's why he's singled you out. He can sense your reluctance, so if he convinces you to help him, then that's a win for his ego. If you keep refusing, he can tell the others you're not supporting him and gain sympathy using that narrative. I'd ask yourself if he's really someone you really want to stay friends with.

This would be where I’d end the friendship. It’s a fetish, and for him to live it fully, he needs the collusion of other women to get his kick.
When you won’t engage freely, he’s emotionally manipulating you and guilt tripping you. Typical male power play.

It's not cruel to say no to a friend and set boundaries . Of course the OP needs to consider her comfort levels. That's just normal, if we don't want to do something we say no. No harm is done. Cruelty would mean harm is inflicted, it hasn't been inflicted here on the friend. If he doesn't like it he can ask someone else or go alone. It's not life or death.

‘Surely as a woman you know how to dress and apply makeup. You’ve been doing it at home. You don’t need me to show you.’

That would be what I’d say.

Bloody good post @Allthegoodnamesarechosen

I hope it will give some posters food for thought. (Probably not but one can hope).

Relatives are in a different category. We have to tolerate stuff because we're related. If they're older, I also have to keep my big mouth shut and not engage when they're being offensive (beyond a 'those attitudes aren't acceptable anymore in polite company granny' etc). Respect to my elders and recognising they were born in a different time. HARD though when they're being actively unkind to others due to skin colour, nationality, sexuality, gender identity etc.

I've had friends in the past who held vastly differing views to me. Trump voters. Pro NRA. We engaged in discussions about Black Lives Matter but they were entrenched (as to be fair, I am too). And the gap just kept getting wider until there wasn't a lot of common ground left. Sad.

I think some of them are but not most of them. A small minority maybe. I just don't want to be part of the kind of drama that goes with it . My friend is good and kind and respect my boundaries when I tell them I am not into this kind of thing and feel uncomfortable with it. I just don't find it interests me, the whole transitioning thing. It leaves me cold . So I don't have involvement in that part of his life which involves high heels dressing all girly and clubbing in Canal Street etc. Those things bore me rigid. He can do that with his other mates. The issue here is not bigotry but boundaries . How do we wish to spend our free time ?

This is interesting.

Did he used to 'get quite angry' about stuff before he told you he was trans?

The problem is I just can’t do it. Fundamentally I don’t truly believe that we can change sex and I feel like I’m supporting a weird fantasy.

You got it in your OP. It's a weird sexual fantasy and he's asking you to collude in it with him. It's absolutely fine to feel uncomfortable about it and to refuse to do it and to walk away from the friendship.

That's how I feel about it.

I would have no interest (or capability) in advising my female friends how to "present as women" so would have no idea how to do so with a male person.