Still confused about patriarchy

[PixelZing]

What's the feminist take on the fact that, even if we live in such patriarchy, the attention given to issues affecting men/boys is insignificant compared to the same attention given to issues of women/girls?

The list of such issues seems pretty long to me (paternity leave, family court bias, domestic abuse shelters, unequal sentencing, workplace fatalities, due process for false accusations, under-representation in HEAL, men's health funding, suicide rates, homelessness, ...) so I'd say there is plenty to advocate about.

(and BTW I don't even understand why we clump men and boys in the same category, wouldn't be more humane to put boys in the same category of women/girls, since they are affected by similar problems that affect girls?)

If people disagree then fine but give proper reasons or else there's little point.

Well, it's been pointed out, multiple times, that the study asks people to say if THEY have been violent. And that many of the women admit to "lower level" incidents of violence. Based on crime stats, we also know that the number of men who claim to have perpetuated violence is too low. We also know, albeit more anecdotally, that women tend to over report their own negative actions. And, again anecdotally (although I suspect there' sprobably data on this if you could compare police reports vs witness/victim/aggressor statements) that men often don't take responsibility for violence.

It's also been pointd out that even if women ARE committing the lower levels of violence at higher rates, that while that is, of course, not okay, the reality is that the number of people being physically harmed by domestic violence are far more likely ot be women. Again, backed up by crime stats. If and when our ustice and police system is in a position to challenge, investigate and charge for every even vaguelly violent moment, perhaps that will change (I doubt it, but who knows). But right now, it's only the reall ybad stuff, really visible stuff, that has a chance of being reported, investigated and then making it to court.

There's also no data in those studies about escalation. So again, we know that often domestic violence perpetuated by men starts with the loweer level stuff - a little slap or "gentle" hit. That then escalates. But we also know it does NOT escalate with women becuase, again, as has been pointd out, if it DID, we'd see that in the crime stats.

Your study also shows no evidence of how often any of this happens or under what conditions. Sadly, I suspect most of us can give examples of ourselves, or loved ones in situations where they're upset becaue they lashed out but usually in reaction to some other situation or, if we did, we were mortified. Sadly, I suspect most of us have some sort of example of a man doing something while denying it completely - whether that's a fight we've witnessed at a pub, a loved one, or even in our own lives. See above - I bet if we could compare the data of what many violent aggressors say when first arrested/questioned, vs what is confirmed to have happened when they actually go to court, we'd see a notable lack of taking responsibility.

Yeah, also this.

And I'll tell you what, why don't you produce all these men living in fear? Or at least a few, as part of your campaign. I'm sure that with a proper educational and supportive campaign more will come forward.

I’m going to quote myself here and ask you to comment on it @YehRight

• In my own case, me muttering ‘for fucks sake' was "abusive language" which is the fig leaf used to minimise his abusive language "I’ll do myself in, and take you with me" (in front of the children). I'm going to be honest and say I don't think they are equivalent, and the fact that they would each get one tick in the "verbally abusive" box shows the weakness of the surveys.
• My not wanting to have sex with him, is "sexual abuse" equivalent to him coercing me to have sex so he wouldn't wake up the whole household shouting.
•My trying to get past when he was blocking me going to work is the same physical violence as him slapping me or grabbing my phone to go through it.

I know it is only an anecdote, but would you describe the violence of this relationship as symmetric or asymmetric.

It does seem that you take the view that there is more onus on women (such as me) not to mutter “for fucks sakes” under my breath, than there is on my (now ex-) husband to threaten a murder-suicide in front of the children, given that they are both verbal abuse/just words?

So sorry for what you experienced, @GuevarasBeret. My father’s extreme violence was explained away, variously, by the fact that my mother was untidy (“maddening” to him), the fact that he had four daughters (stressful for the poor wee bunny), and the fact that he lived near his mother-in-law (who wouldn’t hurl their baby daughter at the wall, if they had a meddlesome old woman in the house daily?). I hope you have been able to rebuild your life. It isn’t easy. Sending strength and support.

Well obviously he was in the wrong. But the situation with my parents was the reverse with my mum making my dad's life hell.

You are exaggerating, the “symmetry” debate in domestic violence is not about the clear asymmetric cases you describe. It's about situations where a woman initiates physical violence, sometimes after verbal provocation, and the man responds by holding her back or by using comparable force.

In many of those incidents even minimal male force, such as grabbing a wrist to stop the blows, is labelled domestic abuse, while the woman’s initial assault is ignored or excused (especially here on Mumsnet).

The legal and social outcomes are not balanced. A man is far more likely to be blamed and to face life-long consequences.

Slogans like “men shouldn't hit women” would be more accurate if they admitted that some women hit men, and that men are expected to happily absorb those blows without responding, even in self-defence, which ultimately runs against basic survival instinct.

I'm interested in the stats on this. How many physical assaults were initiated by women in the UK last year?

and the man responds by holding her back or by using comparable force.

Men and women don't have comparable strength - what do you mean by comparable force?

Slogans like “men shouldn't hit women” would be more accurate if they admitted that some women hit men

I'm sure some women do hit men but men are vastly more violent and stronger than women. I've never heard of a woman killing a man with a single punch or by strangulation. Have you? Could you link the cases? Thanks.

> what do you mean by comparable force?

E.g. a slap with the same strength.

The strength argument, never invoked in male-on-male violence, doesn’t explain why even "safe" actions like holding a wrist, which can be a reasonable self-defense maneuver, are still classified as DV. A man holding a woman’s wrist (possibly to protect himself) poses little risk of serious injury, yet this is treated as abusive behavior.

> I've never heard of a woman killing a man with a single punch or by strangulation

This lady bound her partner for hours and strangled him.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-61570403

Another one
https://www.cps.gov.uk/south-east/news/woman-convicted-murdering-husband

About single punch killing, is indeed very rare, but it is somehow possible:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-12335201

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/05/drunk-woman-cleared-of-killing-man-58-with-one-punch-on-night-out-16406068/

(note the "severity" of the sentence in the second case...)

@PixelZing

E.g. a slap with the same strength.

Men and women do not have comparable strength. Men are generally far stronger than women.

The strength argument, never invoked in male-on-male violence,

Men have comparable strength with other men.

doesn’t explain why even "safe" actions like holding a wrist, which can be a reasonable self-defense maneuver, are still classified as DV.

A single case of holding a wrist in order to defend yourself is not classed as DV.

A man holding a woman’s wrist (possibly to protect himself) poses little risk of serious injury, yet this is treated as abusive behavior.

It's not.

You've cited two cases of female on male strangulation. In the first one, she didn't kill him by strangulation. A man can kill a woman in seconds by strangling her with his bare hands. He doesn't need to tie her up, he is often a lot bigger than her and can easily overpower her.

Neither of those cases regarding a single punch, was death caused by the punch. Both men hit their heads. In the second case, she wasn't found to have killed him, hence the sentence.

I'm very surprised it needs to be pointed out that men are stronger than women. Anyone would think you were being disingenuous.

You haven't given me the requested stats. You're not making things up are you?

Perhaps OP can direct us to specific examples of men facing consequences for grabbing the wrists of women who are attacking them? Ideally court reports, but social media reports of such incidents will also do.