Still confused about patriarchy

[PixelZing]

What's the feminist take on the fact that, even if we live in such patriarchy, the attention given to issues affecting men/boys is insignificant compared to the same attention given to issues of women/girls?

The list of such issues seems pretty long to me (paternity leave, family court bias, domestic abuse shelters, unequal sentencing, workplace fatalities, due process for false accusations, under-representation in HEAL, men's health funding, suicide rates, homelessness, ...) so I'd say there is plenty to advocate about.

(and BTW I don't even understand why we clump men and boys in the same category, wouldn't be more humane to put boys in the same category of women/girls, since they are affected by similar problems that affect girls?)

What I have said is that both men and women can be abusers and that data supports the view that men are much less likely to report abuse than women. That men may respond physically to emotional abuse which is wrong - but so is the emotional abuse.

But surely you can see @GuevarasBeret 's point which is that so often the so-called abuse BY women is not, in fact abuse and/or that the consequences of the abuse by men are so much more significant?

The reality is that while of COURSE both men and women can be abusers, we know that it's more likely ot be men and that certainly in the case of physical abuse, the impact is far more severe when it's M2F.

DH has the kind of job where he often interacts with large groups of women in situations where it's sort of intimate and friendly, even though it's professional. The comments he gets from women are categorically not okay. He does not like it. But the reality is that he does not feel scared or threatened by these comments, they're almost always said in public and not hidden (so there's no "he said she said" about it) and he often tells me that he worries about his female colleagues who might have similar conversations with the few men attending these activities because it must be a lot less easy for them to bat the comments aside.

I am confused. Your husband downplays the public humiliations because he is a big, strong man and these harmless little women can't hurt him?

Can you share some evidence to back up men are making false accusations of abuse or that women are emotionally abusing men in retaliation to physical abuse as you seem to be implying here?

But surely you can see ^ 's point which is that so often the so-called abuse BY women is not, in fact abuse and/or that the consequences of the abuse by men are so much more significant?^

I'm not 100% what you're trying to say in your last paragraph? DH gets abused by women but he has a thick skin so its OK?

DH experiences "public humiliation" and "abuse"? That's a bit of a leap from what I actually said! My point was that inappropriate comments from women in these situations are inappropriate. From a man, they become scary. That's just a fact. Doesn't make it okay either way, but the impact is different.

Can you share some evidence to back up men are making false accusations of abuse or that women are emotionally abusing men in retaliation to physical abuse as you seem to be implying here?

I dont' have any figures because I'm not sure how much this is researched. But women as a group know, from bitter personal experience, that men often threaten and accuse them of abuse while downplaying any abuse of their own. The most high profile version of this in recent years being the tragic case of Emma Pattison whose husband killed her, their daughter and himself but who had also, as it turns out, previously made a false accusation of abuse against her. Hell, as women, we've almost all experienced some kind of physical threat from men just while out and about in our normal lives from unwanted groping to unwanted comments and many of us, at some point, when we've rejected these advances have had men respond from simply calling us names to threatening us directly.

As for abuse by men being worse - as @Maitri108 has pointed out many many times on this thread, crime statistics tell us that the violent abuse perpetrated by men is consistently more dangerous and more consequential than any so-called violent abuse by women. We know this because we do not, in fact, see women being arrested or charged on a regular basis for physical assualt or murder (of men or women). And of course, we also don't see women being arrested or charged for sexual assault in anywhere near the same volume as we see men being brought for charges for ssexual assault and rape.

So it's OK if women perpetrate the majority of non-reciprocal DV so long as they're only slapping and biting their husbands rather than killing them?

OK. Better tell those men to stop whining and get ready for the next slap.

You are so ridiculous! Its sort of funny but also so sad how hard you will twist yourself to try to "prove" women are worse.

You are just ignoring the reality of men denying their abuse while women tie themselves in knots because of anything they do. And no, aren't talking about real violence, no matter how much you want it to be true. You have no response to crime statistics and sre hilariously trying to distract from them.

@YehRight

I've only just seen your other post because you haven't @ me.

So you're just going to continue ignoring the large amount of peer reviewed data I've posted and keep fixating on this particular comment?

The information you have given purports to demonstrate that women are more violent than men. This is not reflected in crime statistics, the data does not include sexual assault, the data does not include repeated abuse, the data does not specify the type of violence and the data is self reported.

What I have done is given you credible crime statistics which demonstrate without a doubt that men are demonstrably more violent than women. So much so, that only 4% of women are in prison and the majority are not in for violence.

Domestic abuse is vastly underreported, however you seem to think that there is a large section of society who are being battered and no one has called the police or noticed.

In fact:

but that's not a reason to completely dismiss and minimise the many thousands of other horrific cases where men suffer.

You were referring to men suffering at the hands of women in domestic abuse cases.

However, if you're determined to make it about female perpetration

You're the one with all the peer reviewed studies showing it's about female perpetration.

But two women a week is 104 a year. There are 33m men in this country. So it seems that the percentage of men that kill is 0.0003% of the male population. A tiny amount.

Now who's being dismissive? Those stats don't include women who have killed themselves due to domestic abuse nor those who have been disabled.

If men need to own their actions then so do we. It's ridiculous to just bury our heads in the sand because we don't like the reality we're being presented with.

What reality?

Like it or not, there are loads of well executed studies which show that outside of homicide we commit at least as much DV as men, if not more

There aren't because it isn't true.

ETA Stop saying "we". I don't abuse people.

Fact is, there's a lot more data in this thread showing that women perpetrate higher rates of DV than men. When you have more than 100 university academics reviewing 1700 peer reviewed studies and coming to that conclusion it's kinda hard to dismiss it.

Make as many claims as you want but until you can province convincing data they're just unverified claims.

We can go by crime statistics if you want but then we'll also have to conclude that rape culture is no longer an issue either as the reported incidents and convictions are so low. Or you could listen to what all the experts and DV charities say about the low levels of reporting around certain crimes (I know you won't).

I'll just keep pointing you towards the facts that don't back up your data. If women are more violent than men, why aren't they being prosecuted for violent crimes?

Why don't domestic abuse statistics back up your data? It's estimated that 1/4 women will be abused in their lifetimes and 1/3 will be sexually assaulted.

Watch some of the social experiments on YouTube. Whenever a man is seen to assault a woman people rush to help. Whenever a woman assaults a man people start laughing and recording it on their phones or they ignore it. Every single time. This is why men don't want to admit to being a victim.

I'm sure we can all agree that romcoms are primarily watched by a female viewership. Well, we've all seen that scene where the female protagonist slaps the man around the face haven't we? A scene intended to elicit laughter. Well, I'm sure he survived. But would we be laughing if Hugh Grant smacked his love interest around the face for being lippy? Probably not. The issue is that violence against men isn't taken seriously.

(awaits the whataboutery/excuses).

The answer is in the very post above (and at least four previous posts).

Here's a clue....reported crime statistics don't feature crimes that aren't reported.

Here's a fact, crimes that aren't reported aren't evidence.

Why don't domestic abuse statistics back up your data?

If you do want to go by domestic abuse statistics, they show that 43% of DV victims are male. When you factor in the well known fact that men are much less likely to report DV then it seems crime statistics do actually support the data showing that women commit the majority of non-fatal DV.

The charity’s analysis of statistics on domestic violence shows the number of men attacked by wives or girlfriends is much higher than thought.

Data from Home Office statistical bulletins and the British Crime Survey show that men made up about 40% of domestic violence victims each year.

“Domestic violence is often seen as a female victim/male perpetrator problem, but the evidence demonstrates that this is a false picture.”

Men assaulted by their partners are often ignored by police, see their attacker go free and have far fewer refuges to flee to than women.

Men are often treated as “second-class victims” and many police forces and councils do not take them seriously. "Male victims are almost invisible to the authorities such as the police, who rarely can be prevailed upon to take the man’s side."

The official figures underestimate the true number of male victims, Mays said. “Culturally it’s difficult for men to bring these incidents to the attention of the authorities. Men are reluctant to say that they’ve been abused by women, because it’s seen as unmanly and weak.”

The number of women prosecuted for domestic violence rose from 1,575 in 2004-05 to 4,266 in 2008-09. “Both men and women can be victims and we know that men feel under immense pressure to keep up the pretence that everything is OK,” said Alex Neil, the housing and communities minister in the Scottish parliament.

https://sufferinsilence.org.uk/more-than-40-of-domestic-violence-victims-are-male-report-reveals/

Hope that helps. You seemed to be having trouble understanding the point even after it being explained four times.

So rape isn't an issue then? We don't need to worry as it's not usually reported? OK.

The statistics demonstrate that men are 98,% responsible for rape. Women can't rape because they don't have a penis.

@YehRight

Women and men do not have equal status in society and there are gendered roles. Women are more vulnerable than men not only because they're physically weaker but because they get pregnant and often earn less or may be financially dependent on their partners. They also tend to be primary caregivers for children.

A refuge is used when a woman is forced to flee from a dangerous man. She may have no access to money and nowhere else to go . Most importantly it's used because it's in a secret location and she can't be found.

It's very rare for a female partner to kill a man and it's rare that a man cannot fend off a woman and needs to flee for his life. We know that because of crime statistics.

The Crime Survey for England and Wales estimated that 1.6 million women and 712,000 men aged 16 years and over experienced domestic abuse in year ending (March 2024). This equates to approximately 7 in 100 women and 3 in 100 men.

A significantly higher proportion of women were victims of each of the overarching types of abuse than men.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/domesticabusevictimcharacteristicsenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2024

You keep throwing around terms like "pper reviewed data" like they are the holy grail. But the data is flawed, for the reasons already pointed out, and that fact is backed up by crime statistics. You just refuse to acknowledge that.

Given that the nature of crimes can be so varied, unreliable witnesses, variable reporting and data input at the time is poorly carried out etc, etc. it'd thought most 'crime stats' are of very limited value - Kinda "Not worth the paper they are printed on".

Sure.

But the vast majority of abuse doesn't involve homicide. We can't just ignore everything else.

I feel like you're either not getting the point or are deliberately pretending not to. I'm agreeing that femicide is a big issue but my point is that we'll struggle to get men on our side if we don't want to address the abuse we perpetrate, which is much higher in numbers than homicides.

I've explained this a fair few times now. If you disagree that's fine, but stop pretending you don't understand the point.

There is no point: "we" don't perpetrate anything, collectively. Neither do men. The minority who do abuse benefit from the biological and economic differences that advantage all men relative to women.

Ankle-tag itching, much?

Well, a peer reviewed study at least undergoes some element of scrutiny unlike many we see quoted on here.

Regarding crime statistics, I'll take the opinions of the experts over a random like you I'm afraid. DV charities etc.

And if you'd read my earlier posts you'd see that the government themselves have pointed out that their crime statistics don't reflect the full picture due to men under reporting.

So are you saying....not all women are like that?

NAWALT. 🤣

Holy shit. Somebody take a screenshot!

Not agreeing with you doesn't mean I don't understand. It means that I think you're wrong.

I'm not just talking about homicide. It would be helpful if you read my posts.

I gave you crime statistics that demonstrate without a doubt that men are more violent than women. I gave you information which proved that men are significantly more responsible for all types of domestic abuse.

we don't want to address the abuse we perpetrate, which is much higher in numbers than homicides.

I'm not abusive and would appreciate it if you stopped including me when you talk about abuse.

You're coming across as whining now.