Still confused about patriarchy

[PixelZing]

What's the feminist take on the fact that, even if we live in such patriarchy, the attention given to issues affecting men/boys is insignificant compared to the same attention given to issues of women/girls?

The list of such issues seems pretty long to me (paternity leave, family court bias, domestic abuse shelters, unequal sentencing, workplace fatalities, due process for false accusations, under-representation in HEAL, men's health funding, suicide rates, homelessness, ...) so I'd say there is plenty to advocate about.

(and BTW I don't even understand why we clump men and boys in the same category, wouldn't be more humane to put boys in the same category of women/girls, since they are affected by similar problems that affect girls?)

Any comment on the above studies?

The data is talking about violence, not other kinds of abuse.

The overall data showed 70.7% of non-reciprocal intimate partner violence cases were perpetrated by women only.

That should be reflected in crime statistics. Why aren't women being arrested for instigating violence?

Fewer men report domestic abuse than women for several interconnected reasons, often rooted in societal expectations, stigma, and practical barriers. Here are the main factors:

1 - Stigma and Shame

• Social norms around masculinity can make men feel ashamed to admit they are being abused, especially by a female partner.
• There’s a false belief that “real men” should be able to defend themselves or not be vulnerable.

2 - Fear of Not Being Believed

• Many men worry that police, friends, or support services won’t take them seriously.
• Some fear being seen as the abuser, especially in heterosexual relationships.

3 - Lack of Support Services

• Most domestic abuse services have historically focused on female victims, so men may not know where to go or may find limited support options, such as fewer refuges for men.

4 - Concerns Over Children and Legal Outcomes

• Men may fear losing contact with their children or not being believed in custody disputes.
• Some worry that reporting abuse could backfire legally, especially if their partner makes a counter-allegation.

5 - Internalised Minimisation

• Men often downplay the seriousness of the abuse or convince themselves it’s not worth reporting.
• Emotional or psychological abuse is particularly underreported by men.

6 - Fear of Retaliation

• Just like female victims, men may fear escalation if they report abuse — either violence or manipulation (e.g. threats to ruin their reputation).

As I mentioned earlier, it'll only be reflected in crime statistics if it's been reported. Charities like Mankind have done extensive research on this and state that men are 2.5x less likely to report than women, stating reasons like not wanting to be seen as 'weak'. Classic effects of toxic masculinity and society's belief that men should be strong - boys don't cry etc. That's likely why a lot more women admit to having perpetrated DV than men will admit to being victims.

As I said, it's not dissimilar to the situation where women often choose not to report rape because they know it likely won't result in a conviction and they'll be stigmatised.

Women also choose not to report domestic abuse and sexual assault. Sexual assault is so underreported that we don't actually know the data.

I've actually come across this data before because it's inevitably cited by MRA. It's flawed.

It is single acts of violence which could include a slap on the wrist and it's self reported, not collected via crime reports.

It doesn't include sexual violence, repeated acts of violence or things like stalking.

What we are certain of is men are arrested and charged at a much higher rate than women for violence and for domestic abuse.

@Laidbackluke Please see my answer above.

Of course you'd say it was flawed lol. Some of these are massive studies and many are government studies.

I mean, if you don't trust data collected by the government then surely you can't be using government crime statistics to argue your point? 🤔

But, again, it's the minimising that I find the worst here. Like how coercive control was earlier likened to 'not being allowed down the boozer'. Now we're talking about 'a slap on the wrist' when some of those studies I linked found that women are equal and in some cases slightly worse than men for 'serious domestic violence', being more likely to use a weapon, and for comprising almost 3/4 of cases of one sided violence where somebody that doesn't fight back is being terrorised. This stuff isn't a barrel of laughs.

I mean, can you imagine if this was reversed?

I'm not on either side but I honestly think your attitude towards DV and level of compassion is a lot worse than the average man, or person for that matter. The comparatively small number of homicides are mainly perpetrated by men which is unsurprising given the huge difference in raw strength but that's not a reason to completely dismiss and minimise the many thousands of other horrific cases where men suffer. I'd hate if men did the same but generally they seem more keen to be allies to us than feminists are to them.

Honestly, I think you're doing us more harm than good here. Most of us want to work with the good men rather than sowing division. It's a much more productive and feasible way of solving the issue.

@YehRight I gave you reasons why it's flawed; it's one off incidents, it's self reported, there's no explanation of what the violence involves, women also don't report abuse, it doesn't include sexual violence.

It doesn't really tell us anything because it's not backed up with crime statistics.

However I am interested in this:

but that's not a reason to completely dismiss and minimise the many thousands of other horrific cases where men suffer.

Could you provide evidence for that please? I'd be very interested to see these horrific cases at the hands of women.

Bit cheeky to ask me to provide more evidence when you've not provided any to back up your own claims lol. I've posted loads already.

You've basically glossed over the multitude of detailed peer reviewed studies I've linked, made a few dismissive comments, then tried to pick out something tangential to request more data on and engage in whataboutery. Ironically, if you actually read the studies it would answer your question.

But I am sorry if I was a bit rude in my previous post, but I honestly don't believe that you actually went to the linked article and accessed any of the studies listed there at the bottom. They would tell you all the methodology etc as proper peer reviewed studies do.

It's just a little frustrating discussing this on here because sometimes you're not sure whether people are being disingenuous /intellectually dishonest or whether they're just genuinely uninformed.

I've seen these studies posted several times on here before and every time they get dismissed yet strangely the people dismissing them can't seem to provide any credible data of their own. We know that crime statistics aren't accurate for crimes like rape and male DV where shame/fear of social stigma stop people reporting along with the knowledge that securing a conviction is unlikely.

However, if men perpetrating the vast majority of DV is the accepted truth that we're so often told it is, then surely there must be 10x the number of large scale studies evidencing this? It should be easy to find dozens of studies contradicting the ones I've posted. Maybe there are and I'm wrong but I haven't seen them.

So why don't you post some studies that aren't flawed. We've seen that a Home Office report on the British Crime Survey is apparently not good enough. Neither is a 32 nation international IPV study. A meta analysis of 82 previous IPV studies? Nope, still not good enough.

OK, how about an international study undertaken by over 100 verifiable academics from 20 universities, spanning years of research and covering 1700 peer reviewed studies? Undertaken alongside the Association of Domestic Violence Intervention Providers and which also reviewed 12,000 additional studies to find the ones with the best methodology? Nope, still not good enough! How about respected DV charities like Mankind? Run by a female CEO no less. Nope, still 'flawed'.

Well, I can't wait to see the calibre of the studies you're going to provide!

I mean I've seen a few on here that I've already mentioned. When posters were claiming that 'the majority of men would rape if they could get away with it', there was a study going around. A non peer reviewed study of 50 young men, all from the same college, who'd been offered course credits to take part (no obvious ulterior motive there, eh?). 🤣

I've also seen the '1 in 5 college students' one where the study authors actually wrote a disclaimer stating that it 'shouldn't be taken as proof of anything' lol. The study that classed sex that was later regretted as 'unwanted sex' and was then used to try and claim it was rape despite none of the victims actually being aware or agreeing they'd been raped.

I mean, how can nobody call these studies flawed yet dismiss studies conducted by hundreds of verifiable academics and industry associations? Bit fishy lol.

So please link me some better studies than the 'flawed' ones conducted by all those academics. No hurry.

@YehRight I have some statistics for you:

• 85% of people arrested are male
• 79% of those prosecuted are male
• 96% of people who go to prison are male,
• women only make up 4% of the total prison population.
• men commit 98% of sexual offences.
• men commit 82% of violence against the person offences.

Can you explain how crime statistics do not support women instigating violence?

but that's not a reason to completely dismiss and minimise the many thousands of other horrific cases where men suffer.

Any way you can support this claim with evidence?

So you can't link a few large scale DV studies showing that men perpetrate vastly more DV?

General crime statistics usually involve male on male violence. And there you have your proof of thousands of male victims. Men are the principle victims of male violence yet they're somehow expected to prioritise women rather than their own sex. Usually by people who aren't interested in 'menz' issues and prioritise women.

No, you suggested that there were thousands of men suffering from horrific crimes perpetrated by women. You can't supply evidence because it's nonsense.

You also can't explain why if women are more violent than men in relationships, it isn't reflected in crime statistics.

On average however, two women are killed a week by a partner or former partner. If women are more violent than men, why is that the case?
https://www.femicidecensus.org/data-matters-every-woman-matters/

Please see the massive post above.

So to summarise:

1. No form of abuse is acceptable or justifiable in any way.
2. Women don't tend to abuse men (or women) physically, they do so emotionally.
3. Society does not treat abuse of men / boys by women with the same gravity as men by women.
4. All the stuff listed above makes it unlikely for a man to report abuse at the hands of a woman.
5. Emotional abuse by women can be an instigator of acts of violence by men.
6. People generally get prosecuted for acts of violence but other forms of abuse a harder to prove / prosecute.
7. Both women and woman can commit domestic abuse.
8. If we correct crime statistics for the above offending rates for men and women are not massively different.

I think there are two insidious issues with the argument I think you are trying to make.

The first is about framing it as there not being a problem if women do it too so that men (as a group) don't have to do anything. If we can say women do it too, then we disappear the family annihilations; the murders; the broken limbs; the missing teeth, and all of it. Don't you think it would be better if men could at least limit themselves to murdering, stabbing, breaking limbs and causing brain injuries at the same (non-zero) rate as women. Certainly for me, I would see that as a great win.

The other half is looking at what actually is equated. In my own case, me muttering ‘for fucks sake' was "abusive language" which is the fig leaf used to minimise his abusive language "I’ll do myself in, and take you with me" (in front of the children). I'm going to be honest and say I don't think they are equivalent, and the fact that they would each get one tick in the "verbally abusive" box shows the weakness of the surveys.

My not wanting to have sex with him, is "sexual abuse" equivalent to him coercing me to have sex so he wouldn't wake up the whole household shouting. My trying to get past when he was blocking me going to work is the same physical violence as him slapping me or grabbing my phone to go through it.
And it is the same dynamic in every domain of the abuse: "are the children not 50% mine?" in the divorce proceedings, from someone who literally never changed a nappy, did a night feed, could name their teacher; or brought them to training.

But if you feel comfortable throwing tired old misogynistic tropes around “why didn’t you leave?”.

I did which was why I responded.

@Laidbackluke

So to summarise:

1. No form of abuse is acceptable or justifiable in any way

The only one who seems to be saying it is, is you.

1. Women don't tend to abuse men (or women) physically, they do so emotionally.

I'm sure some women do abuse physically, they just don't do it at the same rate as men. Domestic abuse is gendered, it's one sex who thinks they're superior to the other acting in a deeply misogynist way.

1. Society does not treat abuse of men / boys by women with the same gravity as men by women.

That's because it's not comparable. For example, abuse often happens when women are pregnant and vulnerable. They may not be working and financially dependent on the abuser. They are physically weaker and have a tiny child to protect and care for.

Men simply do not find themselves in that position. Men are not murdered/injured at the rate women are.

1. All the stuff listed above makes it unlikely for a man to report abuse at the hands of a woman.

All of what listed above? Male offending?

1. Emotional abuse by women can be an instigator of acts of violence by men.

There's no excuse whatsoever for acts of violence and I'm tired of you saying there is. You are blaming women for male violence and you need to stop.

1. People generally get prosecuted for acts of violence but other forms of abuse a harder to prove / prosecute.

Not entirely correct. The vast majority of people who end up in court for domestic abuse which includes coercion, are men. It tends to be in keeping with male offending patterns.

Both women and woman can commit domestic abuse.

Of course.

If we correct crime statistics for the above offending rates for men and women are not massively different.

That's made up.

So you're just going to continue ignoring the large amount of peer reviewed data I've posted and keep fixating on this particular comment? A comment I made quite a few posts after the point where you'd already started dodging questions about the studies aside from just calling them 'flawed' without giving any proper explanation.

This does seem to be a fairly common tactic employed by people trying to avoid answering a specific question. They'll focus on one particular comment and ask for more data, and then ask for clarifications on the data, then clarifications on the clarifications. And then suddenly we're three pages on from the original question and they've managed to sidestep answering it.

You seem to be setting up some form of strawman argument by stating that I've claimed that there are 'thousands of men suffering from horrific crimes perpetrated by women.'

That's not actually what I said. I said that people often focus on comparatively rare events like femicide whilst ignoring the 'many other horrific cases where men suffer'. These could be such things as the sky high male suicide rate or homeless men being left to fend for themselves on the streets due to not being seen as top priority.

However, if you're determined to make it about female perpetration then no doubt there are thousands of men suffering horrific abuse if women perpetrate 70% of non-reciprocal DV as several studies seem to suggest. Whilst the most common pattern of violence seems to be bi-directional there can be little doubt in cases where only one partner is perpetrating violence that the other individual is the victim.

You also can't explain why if women are more violent than men in relationships, it isn't reflected in crime statistics.

I've explained it at least twice in this thread and so has another poster. As documented by charities like Mankind, men are estimated to be 2.5x less likely to report DV than women. This likely explains why studies find a higher number of women admitting to having been perpetrators than men who'll admit to being victims. Men are expected to be strong. As the saying goes 'boys don't cry'.

Will you need it explained a fourth time?

On average however, two women are killed a week by a partner or former partner. If women are more violent than men, why is that the case?

Also discussed earlier. Men are much stronger than women. The average male can easily kill the average female with his bare hands but the reverse isn't generally true. And men have lots of testosterone which until fairly recently in human evolution would've assisted them in fighting to protect their family/community. It's likely that none of us would be here if our male ancestors hadn't fought for survival somewhere down the line.

But two women a week is 104 a year. There are 33m men in this country. So it seems that the percentage of men that kill is 0.0003% of the male population. A tiny amount.

Homicide is a terrible crime which mainly affects men, but it's extremely rare and makes up a tiny proportion of general violence. We can't just ignore the rest of it and focus on this one area. If men need to own their actions then so do we. It's ridiculous to just bury our heads in the sand because we don't like the reality we're being presented with.

Like it or not, there are loads of well executed studies which show that outside of homicide we commit at least as much DV as men, if not more. And yes we're still the ones getting killed but it's disingenuous to pretend that only men are the problem and relinquish all ownership/responsibility for our actions.

So, when will you be providing a load of studies that aren't 'flawed' that contradict the peer reviewed ones I've posted? Shouldn't be difficult surely.

You're making a lot of claims but not providing any evidence. So really it's pretty much just conjecture.

What evidence would you like?

I'm going to bid you farewell as your responses are clearly disingenuous and clearly designed to be atoganistic rather than form part of an honest debate.

No need to announce a flounce.

I am going to join in with a bit of ChatGBT..... I asked it how "violence" was categorised in the 2007 study which claims women commit 70% of all violence becuase clearly that's just batshit. I'll paste the full answer below. But I think key points include:

1 its self reported. I know from personal experience and from MN and other social media that women tend to over-inflate their use of violence/aggression and men are the opposite. I am sure all the women on this thread have experience of listening to women feel terrible about something they did, usually as a reaction, while men deny everything. case in point - exBIL claims he has never been violent notwithstanding tha the has a) broken into her house b) broken into her bedroom and c) locked her in a room and left. He does not view these as abusive, or violent behaviours.

2 Severity is not taken into account.

3 Whether it was in response to other violence or other abusive acts.

Studies like this are part of the problem (and at least our resident misogynists didn't seem to be able to find any similar recent studies, suggesting that there's a realisation how this sort of supposed data skews our understanding of the issue).

This as Chat GBT's answer:

In the 2007 study by Daniel J. Whitaker and colleagues, titled “Differences in Frequency of Violence and Reported Injury Between Relationships With Reciprocal and Nonreciprocal Intimate Partner Violence”, “violence” was classified using data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health (Add Health). The definition of violence was based on self-reported acts of physical aggression and included the following behaviours:

Acts classified as intimate partner violence (IPV) in the study:
• Throwing something at a partner that could hurt
• Pushing, grabbing, or shoving
• Slapping
• Hitting
• Kicking
• Biting
• Choking
• Beating up
• Threatening with a weapon
• Using a weapon against the partner

These behaviours were assessed using items adapted from the Conflict Tactics Scale (CTS), which is a commonly used tool in IPV research. Notably:
• The focus was on physical violence, not emotional, psychological, or sexual abuse.
• The survey asked respondents if they had perpetrated or been the victim of any of these acts in the context of a romantic or sexual relationship.

Important caveats:
• Severity wasn’t weighted—a slap and being choked counted equally toward the classification of violence.
• The context (e.g. self-defence) was not explicitly factored into the classification.
• The data relied on self-reporting, which can introduce bias, especially if one partner under- or over-reports.

This is why some researchers criticise the use of such data in isolation—it can obscure critical distinctions between:
• Initiation vs response
• Minor vs severe harm
• Power/control dynamics
• Frequency or pattern of abuse

My last comment literally started with no form of abuse is acceptable?

Any level of domestic abuse is unacceptable, I'd be over the moon if we could stop it all.

Your case sounds truly horrific and no one deserves to suffer any of what you have suffered. Where have I said in any way shape or form this is the fault of the victim?

What I have said is that both men and women can be abusers and that data supports the view that men are much less likely to report abuse than women. That men may respond physically to emotional abuse which is wrong - but so is the emotional abuse.