Still confused about patriarchy

[PixelZing]

What's the feminist take on the fact that, even if we live in such patriarchy, the attention given to issues affecting men/boys is insignificant compared to the same attention given to issues of women/girls?

The list of such issues seems pretty long to me (paternity leave, family court bias, domestic abuse shelters, unequal sentencing, workplace fatalities, due process for false accusations, under-representation in HEAL, men's health funding, suicide rates, homelessness, ...) so I'd say there is plenty to advocate about.

(and BTW I don't even understand why we clump men and boys in the same category, wouldn't be more humane to put boys in the same category of women/girls, since they are affected by similar problems that affect girls?)

3, 2, 1... "stating facts isn't whining"

"some women hurt men so there's no such thing as patriarchy"

"I read a whole study by myself (look mum!), which means I am right".

Is YehRight 12 years old?

ffas

Women are more vulnerable to men, physically and economically, than men are either to women, or to other men. Your equivalence is false.

I'm not abusive and would appreciate it if you stopped including me when you talk about abuse.

Well, in the spirit of gender equality we surely have to employ the same argument here that we do with men. If innocent women don't want to be tarred with the same brush then they need to sort out the perpetrators in their midst and challenge female violence. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem etc.

It's not men's responsibility to sort out female violence.

I gave you crime statistics that demonstrate without a doubt that men are more violent than women.

Lol. Repeating it over and over again doesn't actually make it true, y'know.

See again my above posts where DV charities and even members of the government themselves state that the statistics don't tell the full story due to men under reporting.

You're trying to argue the absolute credibility of data which has been highlighted as flawed by members of the organisation that actually published it. 😂😂😂

This is gibberish now. Women aren't more violent than men and using flawed data doesn't prove your point.

Using laughing emojis really backs up your argument. I'm taking you more seriously now.

I've already said that domestic abuse is underreported but DV charities don't say that women are more violent than men, neither does the government. MRA do though.

Late to this, but there is a woman on TikTok whose account is set up to call out MRA types who butt into many women’s accounts. Accounts where women discuss DV, VAWG, and are routinely hijacked by men spouting cherry picked MRA skewed statistics that show what victims these poor men are, being beaten by their women folk, being prevented from being decent dads, how women are child abusers etc etc.

This women tags them and asks them to name the charities they’ve worked with (with receipts) to improve these issues, and that she’ll donate money (think it’s £100 or more) to that charity. In the 2 years she’s been doing this she’s paid out £0.

The men doing this are not decent men who want to be part of a solution, they are misogynists salivating at the thought of putting uppity women down on the internet. There’s no substance to their complaints. They are full on rules of misogyny wankers who want women back in their place - either in the kitchen, or on their backs in bed. These type of men are scum and need to be called out.

An army officer once told me how he was trained to deal with out-of-control angry men. State that you’re not interested in whatever they are yelling about, and disengage attention. Never return verbal fire.

This poster is clearly out of control. They’re not debating, they’re getting off on the attention. Going to follow the officer’s advice here (now - he really was a courageous and admirable man). Night!

Government data doesn't back it up? Except the home office figures I posted lol.

Oh bore off.

People calling out female bigots/sexists aren't misogynistic.

Kind of reminds me of when the trans lobby call everyone 'transphobes' for not agreeing that humans can change sex.

Which bigots/sexists are you calling out?

You seem to be implying women don't abuse men?

You're right that, statistically, men commit more violent crimes. But the legal system is not meant to enforce averages, it’s meant to assess each case based on the individual facts, without bias based on gender or any other group identity.

Two cases:

• A woman slaps a man during an argument. In many cases, even if the man reports it, it’s unlikely to lead to arrest, charges, or legal consequences. It's often dismissed or minimized.
• A man slaps a woman under identical circumstances. Same setting, same level of force and it's far more likely to result in arrest, criminal charges, and potentially long-term legal consequences, including NMO and loss of custody or employment.

This is not a difference in public reaction, this is a difference in how the law is actually enforced. The act in both cases meets the legal definition of assault. But the system routinely applies the law asymmetrically based on the gender of those involved.

We would never accept a legal system that treated people differently based on race or religion, even if one group had higher crime statistics. That would rightly be condemned as discriminatory (and in the cases where it does happen to certain ethnic groups, it's called out as a serious injustice). Yet when it comes to gender, this kind of legal inconsistency is often defended.

Feminists could easily neutralize much of the men's rights critique by simply agreeing that female-on-male violence should be prosecuted the same way as male-on-female violence. But ideological commitments get in the way...

@PixelZing

But the system routinely applies the law asymmetrically based on the gender of those involved.

Do you have evidence of this please?

These are about double standards in how the law is enforced

• https://academic.oup.com/policing/article/doi/10.1093/police/paad005/7058107
• https://natcen.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2022-12/NatCen_Female-IPV-perpetrators-report.pdf

This is more about society:

• https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/24732850.2024.2415315#abstract

Anecdotal, but unthinkable with genders reversed:

• https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1989982/24-hours-police-custody-Paul-Jenner-Sherry-Naidoo

She was cleared of both murder and manslaughter, and served time for "assault". I guess it was just a coincidence that Paul Jenner died in the hospital at a young age after being attacked again by her.

And of course there is the ever-green idea that women shouldn't go to prison at all:

• https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/john-major-backs-labour-plan-to-spare-thousands-of-women-jail-fj9xnjtf2

I suspect this one-sided narrative influences more young men than 10 Andrew Tates working full time.

@PixelZing Thanks for the links, the first one was about Greece and the others weren't relevant.

You said:

But the system routinely applies the law asymmetrically based on the gender of those involved.

Do you have evidence that the UK judicial system routinely applies the law asymmetrically regarding gender?

We've already established that men are vastly more violent than women. We've already established that women are significantly more affected than men regarding domestic abuse and you seem to be suggesting that the judicial system routinely discriminates against men.

Can you provide evidence of that please?

> Do you have evidence that the UK judicial system routinely applies the law asymmetrically regarding gender?

Yes, look at the articles again.

If the policing stage is biased, then the entire judicial process is skewed from the start. And then compare the prosecution-to-arrest ratios. There’s a clear disparity.

Are you playing devil’s advocate here, or do you genuinely believe that a woman slapping her husband isn’t treated more leniently than a man slapping his wife?

> We've already established that men are vastly more violent than women

Depends what you mean for "more violent". Articles like this mostly dismantle this asymmetry:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-psychiatrist/article/domestic-violence-is-most-commonly-reciprocal/C5432B0C6F8F61B49A4E2B60B931FA07

@PixelZing

I can't see in any of your links evidence that the judicial system is biased against men when it comes to violence.

Could you please point me to the relevant information? Page number for example as I can't see it.

Your last link is the same information that was discussed and disputed earlier. Women aren't arrested or prosecuted or incarcerated anywhere near the same rates as men.

I've seen no evidence that proves the judicial system vastly discriminates against men routinely.

To answer your question. Domestic violence is wrong, no matter who perpetrates it.

Why aren't you a feminist?

> Why aren't you a feminist?

Because I am for "gender equality", not for "gender equality for women only".

Then you are a feminist because feminism is about equality of the sexes.

Well said. It's well documented that men receive harsher sentencing in many countries.

That's not the argument. The argument for which no evidence has been presented,

But the system routinely applies the law asymmetrically based on the gender of those involve.

Clapping each other on the back for presenting arguments with no facts isn't a good look.

United Kingdom

A paper examining gender sentencing disparities in a large samples of assault, burglary and drugs offences found that male offenders are subjected to significantly harsher sentences, even when controlling for mitigating factors and case characteristics. Men were 2.84 times more likely than women to receive custodial sentence for the offence of assault, 1.89 more likely for the offence of burglary, and 2.72 more likely for offence related to drugs. For offences of assault, the gender factor was stronger than any other ‘harm and culpability’ factor with the exception of the ‘with intent to commit serious harm’ factor.[16]

France

A 2020 study shows that women receive 33% (15 days) shorter prison sentences than men, even when controlling for all observable characteristics – including a very precise description of the crime. When pairs of mixed-gender offender are convicted together the gender gap is even higher - men receive 38.7 additional prison days and 10.7 fewer suspended prison days.

From a procedural point of view, when controlling for the type of crime, men are on average judged after shorter investigations, and are more likely to be sentenced after an accelerated procedure. When taken to court, men are 20% less likely to be discharged (6% vs. 4%). In 2017, 19.9% of convicted men were sentenced to prison, compared to 8.5% of convicted women.[5]

United States

A 2001 University of Georgia study found substantial sentencing discrimination against men "after controlling for extensive criminological, demographic, and socioeconomic variables". The study found that in US federal courts, "males are... less likely to get no prison term when that option is available; less likely to receive downward departures [from the guidelines]; and more likely to receive upward adjustments and, conditioned on having a downward departure, receive smaller reductions than ... females".[6]

In 2006 Ann Martin Stacey and Cassia Spohn found that women receive more lenient sentences than men after controlling for presumptive sentence, family responsibilities, offender characteristics, and other legally relevant variables, based on examination of three US district courts.[7]
In 2012 Sonja B. Starr from University of Michigan Law School found that, controlling for the crime, "men receive 63% longer sentences on average than women do," and "[w]omen are…twice as likely to avoid incarceration if convicted", also based on data from US federal court cases.[8][9]

Variation among judges

In 2005 Max Schanzenbach found that "increasing the proportion of female judges in a district decreases the sex disparity" in sentencing which he interprets as "evidence of a paternalistic bias among male judges that favors female offenders".[4]

A 2020 study found with decreasing number of female judges in French courts the gender gaps in prison and probation sentences widens - prison and probation sentences are lighter for women, while suspended prison sentences are longer. The gender of the prosecutor seem to play no role.[5]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_disparity

None of those reports account for the overwhelming disparity in arrest, prosecution and incarceration when it comes to the sexes.

Women are not arrested or imprisoned for violence in anywhere near the same rates as men. 96,% of prisoners are men. You're talking about huge levels of discrimination, not a couple of percent.

Where women are more violent than men but are not being arrested or reported. Women are beating people up, stabbing, killing, threatening, committing 70,% of domestic violence and not being reported or arrested.

There seems to be a complete blanket ban on reporting all these crimes because I haven't even been reading about them in the paper.

You're making fools out of yourselves.