Still confused about patriarchy

[PixelZing]

What's the feminist take on the fact that, even if we live in such patriarchy, the attention given to issues affecting men/boys is insignificant compared to the same attention given to issues of women/girls?

The list of such issues seems pretty long to me (paternity leave, family court bias, domestic abuse shelters, unequal sentencing, workplace fatalities, due process for false accusations, under-representation in HEAL, men's health funding, suicide rates, homelessness, ...) so I'd say there is plenty to advocate about.

(and BTW I don't even understand why we clump men and boys in the same category, wouldn't be more humane to put boys in the same category of women/girls, since they are affected by similar problems that affect girls?)

I tend to agree with the last sentence, but wanted to pick up on the previous point that female judges tend to sentence mae’s/females the same and male judges don’t. So even when women demonstrate the equality men say they want- women are still responsible for what the men do which is unbalanced.

I am going to summarize that as: women are doing their part here both by being less violent as a group, and as treating criminals even handedly. Surely all the onus is now on men to get their act together?

Frankly, men can advocate for their own issues, just like women have to.

Also many of the issues you mention would improve in the absence of patriarchy. If childcare wasn't seen as a woman's job, rights in court and pat leave would be better.

As for mental illness, women actually experience a higher rate of mental illness and attempt suicide at a higher rate than men. Men end their lives at a higher rate due to method choice. There is research on this topic (you can see a summary by the Samaritans), and one of the reasons for this is because there is more gendered social stigma around non-fatal methods, and also around things such as self-harm. I'm a mental health nurse, and from anecdotal experience can tell you that women tend to internalise mental illness and self-harm through means like cutting, whereas men externalise and are more likely to hit walls and that kind of thing. Behaviours like self-harm (as we would traditionally think of it) are highly stigmatised, and you only need to look at a diagnosis like BPD to see how traumatized women who self-harm are treated. Men who self-harm aren't as likely to get this diagnosis, and are therefore less likely to be excluded from services.

Medical misogyny is highly prevalent, and most women will be able to tell you this.

The focus of domestic violence should be women given the rate at which men murder us.

As for incarceration rates, perhaps have a long hard thing about why men commit the vast majority of violent crime.

Anyway. Patriarchy harm's us all, but the issues affecting men are also feminist issues which would improve naturally whilst dismantling gender roles.

Feminism is for and about women and should remain that way. It doesn't exist for men. It exists to fight the subjugation of women. Things improving for men in some areas is a byproduct.

If men want domestic violence shelters and to be able to express emotions, challenge toxic masculinity etc, then they need to be speaking out. Ironically it's mostly women you see discussing these issues!

If men want domestic violence shelters and to be able to express emotions, challenge toxic masculinity etc, then they need to be speaking out. Ironically it's mostly women you see discussing these issues!

I'm tired of women being seen as responsible for this. Women even start charities to find role models for boys because their dads have buggered off.

Instead of ranting into the manosphere about how hard done by you are, use that energy to make positive changes for you want to see.

None of those reports account for the overwhelming disparity in arrest, prosecution and incarceration when it comes to the sexes.

Apart from the bit where it says
'even when controlling for all observable characteristics'. 🤣

Look, nobody thought you were going to agree with the data. Your thing seems to be making unsupported claims and then calling anything posted in rebuttal 'flawed data'.

This is for the benefit of others that might read your posts and take them at face value or assume you're actually posting from a well informed perspective.

Your information doesn't support your claims that women are more violent than men nor that there is a huge disparity in crime statistics due to sex discrimination.

Adding links with irrelevant information doesn't make what you say correct.

Yes, more women attempt suicide but more men die due to the greater violence involved when men undertake it.

More women perpetrate DV but more women die due to the greater violence involved when men undertake it.

It's the physical strength and evolutionary propensity for violence that men have which is the main factor here. However, in one case the violence is aimed at themselves and in the other it's aimed at women. But in both cases the male obviously causes the most harm.

But people will argue that it's the attempts that matter when we're talking about suicide. However, with DV it's suddenly about which sex dies the most. People cherry pick depending on who they want to portray as the victim.

@YehRight
More women perpetrate DV but more women die due to the greater violence involved when men undertake it.

This isn't true.

Where did I say 'there is a huge disparity in crime statistics due to sex discrimination'?

Of course my links are going to seem irrelevant if you completely mispresent my argument. 🤣

Your chum did Follow the thread.

I have no idea what you're on about.

That's the point I'm making.

Look, I'll summarise my points for you once again.

• Men are more violent than women by far but most of that violence is perpetrated against other men. So men are the principle victims of male violence.

• Male violence is more grievous than female violence because it causes more deaths. This is likely down to the vast differences in physical strength and also evolutionary reasons like higher testosterone which is shown to affect the 'fight or flight' brain mechanism and the fact that it's been observed that violent criminals of both sexes have higher levels of testosterone and that violence rises as testosterone increases, even within the natural range. And the fact that in the vast majority of mammals the male is the most aggressive.

• However, there is a lot of data to suggest that women attack men more frequently. These types of incidents are of the more common variety (hitting, biting, etc) as opposed to homicide so there are likely more male victims than female victims, even if these male victims are not being killed.

• Given the above (and the fact that there are likely more male victims of non-fatal DV) it undermines our arguments if we don't acknowledge female violence when demanding that men stop being violent, because in spite of two women being killed a week there are tens of thousands of men being abused each week and they probably aren't going to be receptive when being lectured about a crime they're the victim of, especially when the perpetrator is a member of the demographic lecturing them.

Please show me the evidence that women are the perpetrators of domestic violence at a higher rate.

I'm not saying the suicide of men doesn't matter or trying to cherry pick. But it's a point that gets used by anti-feminists to say 'but men' and to try and detail feminist talking points, when in reality women attempt suicide more than men. My point remains that men's mental health would improve if we deconstruct gender roles, which is what feminism is concerned with.

I am very empathetic to men's mental health, but men need to advocate for themselves in challenging toxic masculinity. Women and feminists already talk about these points. Men only seem to bring them up when it's to make an argument against feminism.

@YehRight

Given the above (and the fact that there are likely more male victims of non-fatal DV) it undermines our arguments if we don't acknowledge female violence when demanding that men stop being violent, because in spite of two women being killed a week there are tens of thousands of men being abused each week and they probably aren't going to be receptive when being lectured about a crime they're the victim of, especially when the perpetrator is a member of the demographic lecturing them.

there are tens of thousands of men being abused each week

This is simply made up. We're going around in circles because you keep repeating the same nonsense.

and the fact that there are likely more male victims of non-fatal DV

This is made up.

especially when the perpetrator is a member of the demographic lecturing them.

This is projection.

Please show me the evidence that women are the perpetrators of domestic violence at a higher rate.

I've posted like a dozen studies in this thread already. That's what the whole discussion is about!

And the fact that these studies are DEEPLY DEEPLy flawed has been pointed out dozens of times. But you just keep ignoring that.

I'm going to stop engaging directly with you as you just seem to be sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting 'not true' in spite of all the data that's been posted. And if questioned on that you'll just say it's 'flawed data' without offering any of your own.

The only data you've referred to is crime statistics and you've completely ignored all the points around that data, most importantly that it only reflects reported crimes, with the main discussion point being that men report a lot less (and data having been provided to back that up, including quotes from members of the government about the limitations of their own data which is the same data you're clinging to).

Well, the only people arguing it's flawed are those who are ideologically opposed to it by default.

It's like saying "but Keir, you're ignoring all the Tories that say you're wrong".

I'm not even on a side here but I'm loath to make claims about men when the situation is not as clear as many on here claim. And statistically speaking most women favour 'equality' over 'feminism' when surveyed nowadays, despite exposing views that would be considered feminist, so it's quite clear to me that something is going on here. I think most women are like me and would rather work as a team with men than sow division and resentment.

So .... if we have a different opinion, our views on the data immediately become completely wrong/impossible to even engage with?

Another logical mistake on yoru part becuase on that basis, I should just ignore completely that you think crime data isn't effective because clearly you're biased.

In which case the logical conclusion is that all data is pointless.

You've completely ignored the argument.

If women are more violent than men why isn't that reflected in crime statistics?

Please provide evidence to back of your assertion that

there are tens of thousands of men being abused each week

and the fact that there are likely more male victims of non-fatal DV

All the evidence points to the opposite assertion, that women are significantly more likely to be victims across all abusive behaviour.

You're just making statements and assuming people will take them at face value because they're silenced by your use of links and emojis.

No, I've no issues with people disagreeing with me. But on here it always turns into ad hominem insults pretty quickly and I do feel people are pretty disingenuous at times even when I try to give the benefit of the doubt.

Like earlier when I mentioned about men being much less likely to report according to the DV charities and also the government - I did provide quotes etc.

If people disagree then fine but posters were trying to ignore what I'd posted and I had to state it like four times. It often feels like people aren't interested in a discussion so much as just scoring points. I'll happily consider any data that is presented to me and if it looks solid then it'll cause me to reconsider.

However, we've only seen crime statistics posted on here so far and the main point is that a lot of the experts repeatedly state that they don't give the full picture. That's why I posted a lot of other studies that contradict the crime statistics. Big international studies conducted by academics etc.

If people disagree then fine but give proper reasons or else there's little point.

It's almost like as soon as somebody asks a question or expresses an opinion that deviates from the usual narrative here that people immediately go "oh an enemy....must attack". It's clear when almost anybody that questions the status quo gets called 'a misogynist' or a bloke in disguise - I've seen the latter accusation levied against so many posters who are quite clearly women due to having posted here for ages on loads of other topics.

The problem is that it turns away women who want to help but don't want to hate on the entirety of manhood in the process. I truly believe this is why the majority of UK women specifically state they support equality but don't identify as feminists. And the figures seem to be more or less similar in the rest of Europe. This tribalism is only shooting ourselves in the foot and reducing the number of people that would otherwise have helped.

@YehRight

You've done nothing but try to prove that women are more violent than men. Pages and pages of insistence, despite the evidence.

It's almost like as soon as somebody asks a question or expresses an opinion that deviates from the usual narrative here that people immediately go "oh an enemy....must attack".

Yet you're treating women as the main perpetrators of violence against men. Treating women like the aggressor and the enemy.

You see people asking for evidence as an "attack".

MRA come out with the same crap over and over again. The same 'evidence' and surprisingly they do absolutely nothing whatsoever to further their 'cause'.

They're not working on domestic abuse helplines or suicide prevention, but they are on the internet frothing about 'feminists'.

Yup, must be an MRA. See my point above.

The thing is, we never see any of the multitude of studies I've posted mentioned on here. You'll say it's because they're 'flawed' yet they're a million times more credible then many of the ones that get posted on here to villify men.

Like the ones I mentioned earlier. A study of something like 50-60 male students from one single college who were given course credits for taking part. This study being used to try and claim 'the majority of men would rape if they could get away with it'. And another one where the authors pointed out that it shouldn't be taken as gospel, and yet people shouting from the rooftops about it despite some seriously dodgy methodology you'd never get in a peer reviewed study - like classifying consensual sexual encounters that were later regretted as 'unwanted sex' which people were then classifying as rape.

It's just a double standard where at times anything seems acceptable if it makes men look bad but it's immediately 'flawed' if it makes women look less favourable. And half the stuff people say about men would never be permitted against any other demographic. Try saying you don't trust <insert ethnic minority> because they're over represented in crime stats and despite most being fine you can't tell the good from the bad. You'd be crucified!

This isn't my first rodeo and the same tropes are wheeled out over and over again.

Women perpetrate more domestic violence, lack of refuges, male suicide...

Every single time with the same 'evidence'. It's very boring.

Why don't you campaign for more refuges and helplines, tell the government about the thousands of men with horrific injuries being dismissed, raise some funds, go to the papers, present your evidence.

Tell the government about the discrimination in the judicial system where men are committing more crimes because women are just ignored by the police.

It will be explosive. Go for it.