Sex work

[Sunat45degrees]

I have a very "liberal" BIL. The kind who prides himself on his liberal credentials, "life and let live" etc.

I won't lie, he's also the classic white middle aged man who thinks he has all the answers and is completely oblivious to his own privilege. So the type who thinks if something is theoretically true, then of course it is ACTUALLY true eg the gender pay gap isn't really a thing because women make choices to work in less well paid jobs and it just is that way, and obviously, because women would get paid equally for equal work, how could any of us have any issues? or "of course women can get promoted at the same level as men, if they're doing the work". Basically, I feel like he's not moved into any deeper understanding than I had when I was 18.

He's definitely the type who takes the liberal approach based on what I think of the "Hollywood" version - so in a movie, the transwoman 100% passes, would 100% be completely safe for other women, has 100% gone through a huge issue to get where she is so of course, we should consider her a woman. Or the woman who's struggling at work with the wanker boss always finds a way to overcome..... blah blahh blah.

Anyway, his latest, is about how selling your body is, of course, completely fine as long as there's no exploitation.

I have not particularly done a lot of reading or research on prostitution. What I've picked up is a general understanding that we can tell ourselves its "empowering" for women all we like but the reality is that for every women who sells her body and genuinely is in control there are hundreds or thousands who don't. So again, the hollywood version - feisty, independent sex worker making decisions about HER body that work for her is what he thinks it is MOST of the time.

I'm actively looking for resources as I clearly need to educate myself on this issue. But am here to shamelessly ask if anyone who is more knowledgeable can direct me - I just instinctively don't believe that most women are prostitutes by choice. I think even if it SEEMS like a choice, it quite often starts as something else?

Ask him why he's not in the industry or if he wants his child in the industry.

How can there not be exploitation? A woman has little or no choice over who she has sex with or what she does if she wants to get paid.

Many women are driven into sex work through poverty, a 'boyfriend', trafficked or addiction. It's rarely a free choice.

A recent example is the sex worker who had sex with 100 men on Onlyfans. She spoke of how little control she had over the situation despite having staff there. It's not difficult to imagine what happens behind closed doors.

Two points I make; 1. that if you removed all the poor women, addicted women, women with C-PTSD, women who were pimped, women who were trafficked, women in abusive relationships, and women who started under-age, one blow job would cost 5k. You can track the live down in terms of how much sex work brings in by the desperation of the women.

as long as there's no exploitation.

Second is this point. Male punters don't know if there is exploitation, and studies show that they don't ask. Which means they are rapists. Regardless of the position of the women, they are happy to have sex with someone who may be a victim of multiple rapes a day. That makes the male punters, scum. Utter scum. Intellectualising the trade doesn't change that.

Second is this point. Male punters don't know if there is exploitation, and studies show that they don't ask. Which means they are rapists. Regardless of the position of the women, they are happy to have sex with someone who may be a victim of multiple rapes a day. That makes the male punters, scum. Utter scum. Intellectualising the trade doesn't change that.

This is interesting. I like this. He likes to argue and can be irritatingly patronising and dismissive. But I like this approach - "so you'd agree that before a man pays £30 for a blow job in a car, he should be 100% confident that the woman is doign this because it's an easy way to make money? Right?"

@Maitri108 so funny because he would absolutely say that yes, if his DD was doign sex work becuase she wanted to, that would be fine. Easy to say, isn't it.... ?

I have to let him irritate me less. But it's very hard. On plus side, I'm 98% sure that I irritate him just as much!

Tell him that many women in sex work are traumatised and a high percentage have experienced childhood sexual abuse. If he doesn't mind his child risking their life and being raped, then there's something wrong with him.

Honestly, the problem with this man is that he will say, "prove it". That's why I need to start actively seeking out research, articles, facts etc.

As for "minding his child risking their life and being raped" - he simply doesn't see it that way. This is the point I'm making and why he is SOOOOOO frustrating to deal with. He would 100% believe that if his DD chooses to sell her body, it would be this lovely friendly little thing where she's in controll, nice hotels, generous pay and a man who just wants sex. And if you point out that most prostitues are NOT living in fancy apartments and picking and choosing their clients, he'd probably point to "market econmics" or something.

Honestly, it's HORRENDOUS.

I'll give you an example, he, of courses, thinks TWAW and he has huge issues with us mean women not letting them into our spaces. He thinks that we are letting a very very tiny minority of "bad actors" impact how we think about transwomen. But that's because he genuinely believes that 99% of transwomen are men who a) have struggled with this their whole lives b) can absolutely pass c) would have surgery if they could.

@Sunat45degrees Then why doesn't he do it?

There are studies in sex work and childhood abuse and trauma. There are also stats regarding trafficking and rape/murder. Sex workers are very vulnerable.

He sounds like he lives in la la land so I wouldn't bother.

OP, he sounds awful and I completely get where you're coming from. I don't have any patience for this kind of shit anymore, and would just stop engaging with him. You're never going to get through to him. It reminds me of the saying about how it's a bad idea to wrestle a pig - the pig will love it but you'll just get covered in shit

Yeah, I am going to start actively seeking these out. That was sort of what I was asking originally - if anyone can help me cheat and point me in the right direction!

One thing I find really difficult with him is that he comes across as so "reasonable" and "liberal" so I land up loking like the crazy psycho when I challenge him.

Although about a year ago there was an amusing little interaction on social media after which I made three new female social media friends who turned out to be in his circle and equally irritated with him. that was fun! .

And of course, in DH's family, you won't be SHOCKED to hear that he is generally considered to the smart, intellectual, most politically astute one etc etc. Sigh.

@Lottapianos you're so right. It's bloody facebook. I dont want to stop seeing his posts bcause I feel like I need to know what he's pontificating about this week in case I have to deal with DH/SIL/MIL then picking up on it, but... seeing his posts makes my blood boil!

You won’t change his mind, even if you presented solid evidence. It is infuriating but I would shit him up with a ‘does my sister know you use prostitutes’, as that would be my best guess at why he doesn’t want to see the harm.

At best, he is a misogynistic prick who does not see women as humans, at worst he is a user of trafficked and abused women.

Never has the phrase, don't wrestle with a pig, you both get covered in shit, but the pig loves it, been more apt. But if you must, JulieBindell's book 'The Pimping of Prostitution' is a good start.

It's actually DH's brother but that's an interesting point - I suspect he has used prostitutes in the past. And there was a situation that I don't want to go into details about but where basically he got fleeced by a woman who, it was strongly implied was a prositute, while he was off his face on drugs and alcohol. The narrative on that one was very much, "poor innocent BIL who just though this woman was hanging out with him because she liked him but she took advantage". You know the type... one step away from incel ie "women can have any man but men have to just hope that a woman likes them" bollocks.

Haha, if nothing else, this thread is helping me to articulate the many ways in which this supposedly feminist ally, "nice" man, die-hard liberal is a wolf in sheeps' clothing.

Thank you for the Julie Bindel recommendation - I enjoy her writing online so will look that up.

Actually, this has reminded me of a ridiculous situation years ago that wasn't bad, but that now I'm thinking about it, demonstrates his cluelessness.

There was a period when we were engaged, getting married, having babies where inevitably there was quite a lot of interaction between family and our friends due to engagement parties, weddings, christenings etc, in particular with my best friend who was my bridesmaid and is my DC's godmother. Not to put too fine a point on it, but my BF is HOT. She's also smart, successful etc. She was, at the time, also single. BIL and BF met many times during this period, as you'd expect. Interaction was friendly and polite, also as you'd expect. But anyone with half an eye could see there was no flirting, no attraction, no spark.

BIL hounded me to see if my BF would go out with him. And what annoyed me the most about this is the first time he asked, I was a bit shocked he hadn't picked up on the vibe but I was like, "Um, I don't think so and she certainly hasn't said anything but if the opportunity comes up I guess I can ask" but he a) never actually bothered to ask her out himself - he wanted me to do it and then b) he must have asked me about 5 times and it felt like he wanted me to convince her vs just casually say, "oh, do you think you'd say yes if BIL asked you out?" It was like he blamed ME because she didn't want to go out with him.

ICK.

I feel like I should mention at this point that he's not an intrinsically bad guy. Just a) privilege and b) as I said, hasn't really moved on in his thinking since he was a student in the 80s!

In what way is he a feminist ally?

'In what way is he a feminist ally?'

Oh I know this one - he has a daughter so has finally realised that women are human (sort of) and actually matter (sort of) and he TOTALLY GETS IT now and mansplains feminism to you when the subject arises?

@Maitri108 Oh, I don't think he is. HE thinks he is. @Lottapianos has it sort of right. LOTS of mansplaining, definitely.

But his feminism is all in the abstract vs in the real world. So, for example, he thinks that women should have equal opportunities in the workplace and would, of course, be horrified by blatant bias. But is COMPLETELY oblivious to the subtle endless sexism, or the reality of how workplace dynamics actually play out for women in real life. He, of course, claims that he would always promote a woman or vote for a woman "if she's the best candidate" but it wouldn't occur to him for a single minute that the lens through which he (or others) are viewing these women actually penalises them.

I don't remember a specific conversation but I feel like at some point there was a discussion about the gender pay gap - years ago - and he was sort of shrugging his sholders, "well, women often take time off for childcare etc, that's why they don't have the big jobs".

But then, him and his ex divorced when his children were small. He honestly thinks he was the greatest dad ever, even though his children lived with their mother in a different city. So yes, he did 100% pay a decent amount of child maintenance - good for him. And he'd have them in holidays, but he really thinks he is the one who brought them up and talks often about how the way he parented was so important.

I actually think that men like him are sometimes more dangerous. Because the ones who are blatantly sexist can be spotted a mile away. But his oh-so-reasonable comments and suggestions, his apparent genuine concern for women's issues.... argh. It's so annoying.

I think he's also completely oblivious to his privilege. He was really annoyed with me a few years ago. My sister has a very senior, albeit niche, role for a top tier organisation in the industry he used to work in. It's very very difficult to believe he did not know this as she has worked in this type of role and organisation for pretty much her entire career, including while he was still working in it. She certainly knows what he used to do, but I guess she wasn't interesting enough for him to have ever made any effort to find out what any of the women in my family do?

Anyway, he doesn't work in this industry anymore as you have to be licensed and for various reasons (some out of his control, some on the edge of being dodgy) he does not have such a license. He was absolutely FURIOUS with me when he was out of work a while back and he "discovered" what my sister did and that I had not leveraged her contacts to get him a job. The fact that a) he can't do it because, you know, it would be illegal and b) the fact that it would be deeply unprofessional of my sister to pull strings for someone who would be hugely underqualified (even if he did have the license still) for the level of organisation she works at, was completely beyond him. He genuinely thought he DESERVED this and that me (and by extension, my sister) were being unfair.

[ETA - I realised that was annoyingly vague. I work in banking so I think I can give an equivalent example from banking: So if it was banking, my sister works for a top tier bank bank in a niche role - let's say she's an actuary working specifically on pension risk and calculations for a bank like JP Morgan. In this scenario, he would have had a job in banking in his previous life - let's say as a junior manager in a retail branch at a small regional branch of somewhere like the CoOp bank. He can\t do this anymore as he no longer can be licenseed by the FCA because he a) didn't keep up with his qualifications/regulatory compliance and b) was "let go" from the bank due to some dodgy behaviour that while not criminal, was a bit borderline. But he is outraged, that my sister, in her JP Morgan/pension/actuary role, isn't somehow finding him a job.....

Aaah, that was cathartic. Thanks!!! :)

It's my choice to be a sex worker now. I didn't enter the industry by any choice of my own though...if you want any info you can ask me

Gosh this reminds me of the saying 'winning an argument with an intelligent person is difficult, winning an argument with a stupid person is impossible'

I don't have any helpful advice op but he sounds utterly exasperating, you have my sympathy. I have a relative like this too, I just avoid the topic with him now

I actually think that men like him are sometimes more dangerous. Because the ones who are blatantly sexist can be spotted a mile away. But his oh-so-reasonable comments and suggestions, his apparent genuine concern for women's issues.... argh. It's so annoying.

Give me an old school sexist man over a covert misogynist any day.

That's interesting. Can I ask why you entered and why you stayed?

And I guess, really, in your experience how many are there by choice? Real choice, not "it's this or somethign else I'd also hate".

Yeah also, at least with an old school sexist, you get the GOOD bits too. I remember these old fogeys I used to work with many years ago. They were sexist and annoying. But they took it the whole hog - paid for everything, used to joke (while happily forking over the cash) that their wives cost a fortune (icky, obviously, but so much better than the men who claim to be liberal but then want women to be contributing 50/50 whiel still looking amazing at all time and doing all the housework!). Were irritating in their "women are the weaker sex" bollocks but, on plus side, then went out of their way to "protect" them so would be the ones going out to do late night emergency shopping or collecting teenagers from parties, walked women home in dodgy areas or made sure they got home okay, etc etc etc .

I remember having an argument with MIL about a different BIL (hahaha - there's a trend). She told me that she knows its old fashioned but she thinks its nice for a woman to cook a meal for her DH at the end of the day (BIL was SIL's DH). I told her I had no issue with that, but if she wantd that level of traditional for her DD, did she ALSO feel that her DD should not have to be the main breadwinner, and that her son in law should perhaps do more of the "dirty" work like bins and gardens and DIY that, needless to say, he didn't do!

Funnnily enough, she actually started looking at (now ex) BIL differently after that. haha.

It's such a loaded discussion... Men have to tell themselves the majority of women enjoy it else the horrible truth about the inherent abuse in the transaction becomes clear. We can choose to stay with abusers with a smile but the damage is done regardless. Who can look at that lass trying to shag dozens of men for clicks and think "I hope my daughter chooses that route'" or even just wonder about the effect on someone's psyche and health.

When I was younger and more insecure I dabbled in some dodgy things like sexy pics and OMFG if I could delete them all now I would. And pass the mind bleach. The attention was addictive but I put myself in such such dangerous situations like being in hotels with people I didn't know doing things that I'd never do by choice in a relationship. No one hurt me but it was fucked up.

Julie Bindel is good on this

He sounds ignorant and especially lacking in empathy. You don't need 'evidence' to tell you what is obvious if you have some humanity.

If you do engage with him further I suggest not letting him put you on the back foot demanding research papers while he spouts off platitudes. Make him justify his beliefs on principle by asking challenging questions. I don't know if a middle aged man can successfully become un-misogynist though, I would be curious if they could.

I'm putting these two in my back pocket :

Would you really want your DD to do this? Do you thnk she would bbe safe even if it's an upmarket hotel being paid £1000 per night?

Do you think that as we can't tell if exploitation is happening that men should agree not to havve sex with prostitutes unless they have confirmed, without a shadow of a doubt, that there is no exploitation. How do you think it would work to insist that only wmen who are empowered by having sex for money are okay as prostitutes.

And I'm going to go reading more of Julie Bindel. I already follow her on social media (although not sure I've seen much recently, must check my algorithms).

ask him about the woman giving blow jobs for a can of cider

is that empowering?