Sex work

[Sunat45degrees]

I have a very "liberal" BIL. The kind who prides himself on his liberal credentials, "life and let live" etc.

I won't lie, he's also the classic white middle aged man who thinks he has all the answers and is completely oblivious to his own privilege. So the type who thinks if something is theoretically true, then of course it is ACTUALLY true eg the gender pay gap isn't really a thing because women make choices to work in less well paid jobs and it just is that way, and obviously, because women would get paid equally for equal work, how could any of us have any issues? or "of course women can get promoted at the same level as men, if they're doing the work". Basically, I feel like he's not moved into any deeper understanding than I had when I was 18.

He's definitely the type who takes the liberal approach based on what I think of the "Hollywood" version - so in a movie, the transwoman 100% passes, would 100% be completely safe for other women, has 100% gone through a huge issue to get where she is so of course, we should consider her a woman. Or the woman who's struggling at work with the wanker boss always finds a way to overcome..... blah blahh blah.

Anyway, his latest, is about how selling your body is, of course, completely fine as long as there's no exploitation.

I have not particularly done a lot of reading or research on prostitution. What I've picked up is a general understanding that we can tell ourselves its "empowering" for women all we like but the reality is that for every women who sells her body and genuinely is in control there are hundreds or thousands who don't. So again, the hollywood version - feisty, independent sex worker making decisions about HER body that work for her is what he thinks it is MOST of the time.

I'm actively looking for resources as I clearly need to educate myself on this issue. But am here to shamelessly ask if anyone who is more knowledgeable can direct me - I just instinctively don't believe that most women are prostitutes by choice. I think even if it SEEMS like a choice, it quite often starts as something else?

I’m quite sure dealing drugs pays better than most jobs and is more pleasant than cleaning someone else’s house; but that doesn’t mean it’s a valid career choice or should therefore be considered a proper job. And neither do we need to chat to 1000 drug dealers in order to think it’s wrong.

That's a stupid comparison, drug dealing is illegal, prostitution is not. The government would make it illegal if it is 'wrong'.

But, as on this thread, you can see that plenty of us think it is wrong. It’s objectification, paid rape, exploitation, and for many, morally repugnant because it harms women, families and children. It’s also subject to a lot of legal restrictions, and many related activities are illegal (and it’s illegal in NI). Why do you think pro-sex-work activists argue for decriminalisation if it’s all fully legalised?

Also, quite a lot of drug purchasing, minor dealing and drug-taking is effectively decriminalised; the drugs industry similarly exists in a murky state where parts of it are effectively decriminalised and parts of it aren’t. Large scale drug trafficking and dealing, like sex trafficking, are illegal; but in practice an individual isn’t going to be prosecuted for cocaine possession for personal use. As with the sex industry, there are layers of middlemen who are committing criminal acts by, for example, dealing, importing (as with pimping and trafficking). So actually they are very analogous ‘industries’, and of course often go hand in hand, with drug dealers often also making use of trafficked and prostituted women (or dealing in both); and many prostituted women dependent on drugs.

It’s a pretty good comparison, to be honest. I can see why you don’t like it, though - because it makes clear that in reality it isn’t just some lovely individual empowered and autonomous exchange between sex worker and sex buyer, but that the transaction is often caught up in much bigger networks of money, control, illegality and exploitation which are murky and not at all savoury or pleasant.

The fantasy you’re selling, of employment rights for individual sex workers, very conveniently forgets the other side of the industry — pimps and traffickers and abusive men, drug taking, porn, and many overlaps with drug trafficking, violence and organised crime.

Thank you for your detailed response. One thing is that when we talk about sex work it’s men & women too. I hear you on your ultimate aim which is to outlaw sex work, but also change the behaviours that lead people to purchase sex, whatever spectrum that may manifest as. I do worry about people in the sex industry now, how they are viewed, listening to their views and also how they can be supported to as best we can protect, support them in their current workplace.

Who is ’men and women’? Because punters are overwhelmingly male. There are of course male sex workers, but they typically have male punters. Is this another area posters try to pretend women are ‘just as bad’?

Yeah, sure. The old “women use sex workers too” trope.

Plenty of male sex workers who will only see female clients or M+F couples. It's not as black and white as you think.

Hi, when we talk about sex work, we talk about the workers who are male and female. And thanking you for your detailed response & your ultimate aim to outlaw sex work and change behaviors that lead to purchasing of sex. I shared my concern for existing sex workers and how, right now, how we/ society can better listen to their views, support and protect them.

That's an interesting point of view. You and pleasedonotfeedme are suggesting that prostitution was one thing in the past, and is something different today. There is something in what you say.

In 1993 there was a change in the law in Ireland concerning prostitution. Rachel Moran wrote about it in her book Paid For. She said that it caused enormous suffering for the women involved. Others have said that it pushed sex workers into the hands of pimps.

The researcher Ann Marie O'Connor wrote that pimps became increasingly common after the introduction of the 1993 law.

You would think that Rachel Moran would have been very cautious about the introduction of the 2017 law. She insisted though that the Nordic model had proved that it had reduced the amount of prostitution.

The official report by Dr Geoffrey Shannon however makes no claim that prostitution has been reduced in Ireland. It does say that extra money to help women to exit hasn't materialized and women are still being arrested.

So I would say yes in some countries the nature of prostitution has changed for the worse but that is not due to pornography but due to misguided changes to the law.

pleasedonotfeedme wrote that I am arguing both for and against Rachel Moran. I found her experiences very interesting. Her ideas though don't make sense and her false statistics are unforgivable.

I don't understand what you are saying about Chinese sex workers and cars. Are you saying that they don't manage to get the cars they want or are you saying they are exploited despite getting the cars they want?

It could help if sex workers were given greater involvement on proposed laws to criminalise their work.

Most people who want the Nordic Model aren't sex workers.

Most people who want the Nordic Model aren't sex workers.

Most people who want vapes banned aren’t vape sellers, but we don’t canvas the opinions of vape shop owners when looking at the impact of vapes on public health, antisocial behaviour, and the negative individual health implications of vaping.

We don’t create an interest group of small time cannabis dealers when we want to regulate drugs policy.

Etc. etc. - you get the idea. We don’t have to regard all markets as good just because they’re markets. That’s a rightwing article of faith, of course; but not everyone believes it, or has to bow down to it. Many people still think some things shouldn’t be bought and sold, and that human dignity and consent are two of those things, no matter whether some other people want to sell them.

I'll preface this by saying I'm completely opposed to prostitution, pornography and any activity based on the commodification of intimate access to women's bodies. The surge in child trafficking in Thailand and Colombia amply illustrates the horrific downstream effects that accompany the legalisation of this sordid trade (Scale effect>Substitution effect leading to trafficking to meet rising demand, the man using the peostitute does not care about her provenance).

I've seen prostitutes argue they aren't like cannabis or vape sellers in this instance because it's their safety and ability to work that's impeded by abilitionist measures. I don't buy into it because the basis of what they do is untenable. It impacts how the rest of us are perceived and legitimises survival sex, reduces us to a sexual utility for men.

What prostitutes seem to want is a controlled burn, some semblance of safety in a line that's fundamentally at odds with that aim. That's why they say they deserve a seat at the table --for risk mitigation and harm reduction. The option of taking up another metier doesn't seem to cross their minds, they counter all objections with 'Stay out of my business. Don't come between me and my ability to make money.'

Unfortunately, men will pay handsomely for no-holds-barred access to women and these women are used to getting paid a lot for doing very little. Arguable, I know, as every encounter is essentially life threatening, carrying the risk of rape, maiming and abuse, not to mention the consequences on women's self-esteem. I have noticed they tend to downplay the psychological toll this work takes because acceptance would trigger cognitive dissonance, catalyse flight.

Abused women are overrepresented in that population. Men create the supply and the demand. It's sad because the fallout from mercenary decisions of coddled 'voluntary (e-)prostitutes' reverberates far beyond themselves.

Not very good analogies. People who sell cannabis illegally on the street etc don't want it legalised, because if people can buy cannabis legally they will very likely do so and that means less business for street dealers. This is exactly what has happened in the USA- the cannabis black market goes down. Yes some may keep buying from a dealer if they know and trust them; but in general why buy stuff from the street you don't know the strength of that could be impure and have dangerous additives etc when you could go to a legal dispensary and know exactly what you are buying?

Sex workers are people who sell a service (not their "body") and sex workers are not vapes, cannabis, spitoons or pizzas as some NM supporters may compare them to. A lot of NM supporters as I mentioned are not and never have sold sexual services, and a lot of them are religious/church orgs who aren't even interested in women's rights or what is in the best interest of sex workers they just go with what the bible says is moral/immoral and couldn't give a damn what sex workers/human rights orgs/health orgs/anti-trafficking orgs etc have to say. This is why Ireland and N.Ireland have the NM- the church has a lot of power there that helped the bills sail through parliament.

I haven’t mentioned the Nordic model, and I doubt its main supporters are particularly religious, or that the very religious have even heard of it. Most normal people in society generally do not think prostitution is okay, not because they support one or other “model”, but because they think it’s harmful to women, families (and children) - not just to prostituted and trafficked women themselves, but to all of us in society, men and women alike.

Banging on about the church and the Nordic model sounds bizarre. You’re clearly stuck in some other argument the rest of us on this thread aren’t even having. We’re pointing out that prostitution is mostly only good for male punters and pimps, who damage all of us in society by purchasing sex as if it’s a commodity (or, indeed, a service - which it isn’t, by the way).

All the pro-“sex work” posters on this thread are just merely trying to disguise that they are actually pro-men’s rights to buy sex, not anything to do with what is good for “sex workers” at all (and some of the posts are creepily robotic, fantasising and fixated, in a way that is simply not normal or well-adjusted).

There’s also no consistency in the way you want us to view “sex workers”. If it really is work, as you say, and it’s all wonderful market forces with women just choosing to do it to buy cars, then why should we be bothered if they have to stop doing it, and get a proper job like all the rest of us? If they aren’t exploited or oppressed?

(Because you know quite well that the vast majority of prostituted women are not actually choosing to do it because it’s a wonderful life, but you want to maintain the fantasy that it is because you’re actually pro-men).

In Northern Ireland the Nordic model was supported by Protestant Evangelicals such as Jim Wells. He resigned after he linked same-sex relationships to child abuse. He thinks that abortion should be illegal. In the NI Assembly he gave a false statistic to support the adoption of the Nordic model. He said that 127 prostitutes had been murdered in the Netherlands after the legalization of prostitution there.

If you read the feminist Kat Banyard's book Pimp Nation she repeats this false statistic.

In the Irish Republic the organization Ruhama campaigned for the Nordic model. Ruhama was formed by two orders of nuns, both of which had been involved in Magdalene laundries where women and girls were maltreated. Ruhama produced a paper that stated that 38% of Irish prostitutes had attempted suicide and 25% have been diagnosed with depression.

They give a reference for these figures. The reference is to research by Ann Marie O'Connor. If you look at this research it says nothing about suicide or depression. You can find these figures in a different paper by Ann Marie O'Connor and her colleagues, but that one is clearly about a small group of drug addicts in Dublin, not about prostitutes in Ireland in general.

Rachel Moran stated these false statistics in her book Paid For. She went on Woman's Hour and repeated Jim Wells' false statistic.

The Nordic model was passed in Ireland North and South because of religious bigots who are prepared to lie.

In Britain in 2018 there was a debate in Parliament. Ian Paisley, the son of the Reverend Ian Paisley, was the chair of the debate. Fellow Christian and former preacher Gavin Shuker was the first to speak. Fiona Bruce is another committed Christian who called for the Nordic model to come to Britain.

There were many false statistics stated during the debate. Statistics that are shared by Radical Feminists and Evangelical Christians. There is one academic paper, by Syvia Walby et al, that they all seem to treat as gospel even though it is poor quality. Of course, none of them can be bothered to check the references, otherwise they would know (as with the Ruhama document) that there are errors. A survey in Sweden in 2014 showed that 0.8% of Swedish men had paid for sex in the previous year, but it is not true that this was the lowest in Europe.

Why would anyone want to ban vapes? There are many people who are addicted to cigarettes who cannot overcome their addiction to nicotine. They go on to vaping and it saves their lives. Cigarettes kill, vapes don't.

There are teenagers who have never smoked who start using vapes. That is bad. The way to deal with it is not to ban vapes. That way we would have more people dying of cancer and tens of thousands of young people who have an addiction as strong as heroin but with no way of dealing with their cravings.

Much better to use other methods. Vaping could be prescription only. Only smokers or vaping addicts would be allowed to have a limited supply. Don't accuse me of missing the point of your argument: the point is that people who want to ban things and think it will all go away cause immense suffering.

When we want to change drugs policy we should consult the pharmacists. They are the ones who will be selling some of them if they are made legal. If someone can buy a drug from a pharmacist, why would they buy from a dealer?

It's nothing to do with right-wing attitudes and free markets. I'm not right-wing, and I'm not an anarchist either (many supporters of decrim seem to be anarchists). People have different ideas about 'human dignity'. We buy people's consent all the time.

It’s amazing the lengths the pro-sex-work posters go to to avoid EVER mentioning the MEN who buy sex — and their families, partners, communities, etc. As if the MALE SEX BUYERS don’t exist — despite the fact that they are the reason prostitution exists at all.

I am not a 'pro-sex-work poster'. Just because I don't believe in a particular method of policing sex work doesn't mean that I think that prostitution is a good thing.

The most important question you can ask about men who buy sex is how they respond to changes in the law. There's no point in saying they are evil and we must punish them if that doesn't have the intended effect. That's why it's so important to get the facts right. When people say something that isn't true they should be criticised.

If he says he’d do that, then I think the next logical question is why he was getting annoyed because your sister wasn’t find him a job in banking, when all he had to do was go and sit in the lobby of an expensive hotel and look alluring every time businessmen walked past. Maybe slip the concierge a couple of quid so he knows who to call if any ‘special requests’ come in (I’m assuming he thinks standing on a street corner in the cold wouldn’t be on brand for him. Perhaps a bit Aldi, when he sees himself as more of a Waitrose man). If he really annoys you, you could always tell him to come and lecture you about prostitution when he’s put his anus where his mouth is.

You could carry on debating him but I think it might be the fight he enjoys. Who can shout the loudest and be the most righteous without actually thinking about what they’re saying. I think he’d react quite badly to being mocked, and you making it clear that you found him too ridiculous to take seriously. If he starts then roll your eyes and say ‘oh here we go, Feminist Freddie is off again. You should write to <insert feminist of choice here> and explain to her where she’s been going wrong’. Laugh at him. Show him you find his opinions laughable. Tell him you’d expect that level of critical thinking from a teenager.

you could always tell him to come and lecture you about prostitution when he’s put his anus where his mouth is

You have some strange ideas about what it is that sex workers do. Most sex workers don't do anal sex. Most sex workers do oral sex but it is with a condom. There are sex workers specialize in oral sex without a condom but it is at their discretion, the client will have to pay more, especially if he wants CIM. I explained this earlier in the thread when I quoted what former sex worker Rachel Moran wrote in her book.

It doesn't make sense to say that someone has to want to do a job to be able to defend it. There are many jobs that we think are acceptable jobs but we don't do them. If you think that surrogate motherhood or organ donation is acceptable under the right circumstances that doesn't mean that you have to do it yourself before your argument is accepted. People who have done sex work and say they have no regrets are dismissed anyway by people like you. You don't listen to them, don't even want to understand what it is that they do.

Some feminist authors are obsessed with prostitution, others don't mention it at all. So to say that any feminist will support your argument is not true. I have just got two books out of the library by the same feminist author, Angela Saini. One of them is called 'Inferior', the other is called 'The Patriarchs'. The first has nothing to say about prostitution, the second mentions it in the context of women in Mesopotamia who are thought of as having been prostitutes but probably weren't.

She starts one paragraph by writing "There should be no shame in sex work" which shows on which side of the fence she is on this issue. She also mentions prostitution in the context of poverty and slavery. There is nothing in either of these two books to say that prostitution in itself is something that needs to be eliminated to achieve female emancipation.

Are all your experiences of women from library books @JennyShaw ?

@JennyShaw Have you had a bad day? What’s wrong? Are you overly tired? Has someone annoyed you so you thought you’d have a fight with a random stranger on the internet? Or is it just that you’ve read a couple of books on prostitution and now want to show off how clever you are?

You have some strange ideas about what it is that sex workers do. Most sex workers don't do anal sex. Most sex workers do oral sex but it is with a condom …I explained this earlier in the thread when I quoted what former sex worker Rachel Moran wrote in her book You’ve very literal, aren’t you, Jenny? No, I really don’t have any strange ideas about what they do. But he has a grand total of two orifices that the owner of a penis might be interested in and ‘put his mouth where his mouth is’ didn’t quite have the same ring to it. Not as eloquent as Rachel Moran, I’ll admit, but to be fair, I wasn’t writing a fucking book. And yes, you probably did explain it earlier in the thread, but I feel that you’ve got quite an unfortunate way of lecturing people rather than talking to them and I found myself getting quite irritated, so I simply moved on past your posts without reading them. I’m wishing you’d done the same with mine.

It doesn't make sense to say that someone has to want to do a job to be able to defend it. There are many jobs that we think are acceptable jobs but we don't do them. If you think that surrogate motherhood or organ donation is acceptable under the right circumstances that doesn't mean that you have to do it yourself before your argument is accepted. Very true, but since you’re clearly up for making some assumptions, with no need for a factual basis whatsoever, please allow me to join in. I don’t believe for a single minute that the OP’s BiL believes that prostitution is an acceptable job. I think it’s partly him enjoying riling women up and partly him wanting to show off his left wing credentials. I don’t think he’d date a prostitute, or be friends with a prostitute, not even one of your happy, successful ones with no regrets, and if his wife or daughter ever announced they were setting themselves up in business and asked him to hand out some business cards at the golf club, his little head would explode. As Rachel Moran says ‘Prostitution is not any sort of profession, never mind the oldest one’.

People who have done sex work and say they have no regrets are dismissed anyway by people like you. You don't listen to them, don't even want to understand what it is that they do People like me? Oh Jenny. I’m not really sure of the best way to respond to this. Part of me wants to just roll my eyes and not dignify it with a response. Part of me wants to laugh at how melodramatic you’re being and ask if you’re hoping to be headhunted for a job as a Hollyoaks scriptwriter, and part of me is starting to feel a tiny bit tetchy and inclined to give you the row you’re clearly wanting. Sadly, I’m procrastinating because I’ve still got some work to do, so the tetchy part is winning. Get your pig costume on Jen, let’s wrestle! I want to make it very, very clear to you that I have no feelings at all on people who have been prostitutes and who have no regrets. None at all. And you’re right, I don’t have any interest in listening to them and I have zero interest in what they do. Why would I? They’re fine with what they’ve done, they don’t need my support and why would I want to hear about the details of what they’ve done during the working day? I feel exactly the same way about people in financial services, insurance, accounting, vast swathes of the civil service and dentists. I don’t even want to understand what some of my colleagues do. My interest and support is reserved for the people who could really bloody do with it. Like victims of sexual exploitation, poverty and addiction, who don’t always have a choice about what happens to them. The ones who hate what they’ve have to do but have no choice. And those women might be a tiny number in your world, where it’s apparently all empowered career women who buy their PPE in posh knicker shops and quaff champagne all the way to the bank, but in my world, it’s the poor sods who need help, support and understanding without judgement. They’re the ones I want to hear from. All I’m hearing from you is arrogance, privilege and other people’s opinions.

Some feminist authors are obsessed with prostitution, others don't mention it at all. So to say that any feminist will support your argument is not true I’m assuming you’re reading two threads at once and are getting confused over who said what, because a) I wasn’t actually making an argument. I was merely agreeing with the OP that her BiL is a bit of a twat, who would probably enjoy explaining to a feminist how she was doing feminism wrong, and b) I don’t believe that I ever suggested that anyone, feminist or otherwise, would support anything I think or say. I don’t presume to speak for anyone else when voicing my own opinion.

She starts one paragraph by writing "There should be no shame in sex work" which shows on which side of the fence she is on this issue. She also mentions prostitution in the context of poverty and slavery. There is nothing in either of these two books to say that prostitution in itself is something that needs to be eliminated to achieve female emancipation And that’s lovely, but so what? I don’t believe anyone died and made her the final word on the ethics of prostitution, but if that’s how she feels, then good for her. Now, what point are you trying to make? Because you’ve spent ages telling us all what anyone who has ever written a book on the subject has said, but you’ve said precious little reflecting your own opinion.

Are you suggesting that I think prostitution is shameful? Because I absolutely don’t. I’m not judging anyone who does it, either by choice, circumstance and certainly not anyone who has been forced into it. My judgement is reserved solely for the men who are happy to visit a prostitute in the knowledge that there’s a chance he could be raping her.

Ask him why women are being trafficked into sex work? If it’s such a great career why aren’t there hundreds of applicants for the job? How come accountants or dentists aren’t being trafficked? Why just women into sex work?

@WilfredsPies great post, thanks

To update, his response to the Supreme Court ruling was so batshit and frankly disgusting that i have gone from finding him mildly annoying and twattish and rolling my eyes at his woke bro attitude to actually being quite cross and basically willing to admit to myself I dislike him. I have not said anything to DH, including about the SC comments, but he is pretty much dead to me.

We will, of course, have to see and engage with him at times but I already don't really act proactively on that and i will simply quietly take another step back.

It's sort of a relief. I have been trying comprehend for years I do like him.and just have a few issues with a few comments and it's veen an issue for dh as he has commented a few times that I don't like his brother. Ironically, i think now I am accepting it to myself might be better - any interaction I go into I will do so knowing inhave to pretend etc vs currently where I am constantly surprised by his comments and that then shows.

For example, he was basically an absent father. Long story. But last time we saw him with his adult dc he made some comment about how he didn't have this issue with his children being online when they were growing up. His son just rolled his eyes, his dd laughed at him and said he didn't have a clue what she was doing online and i blurted out, "how would you know, you weren't even there". Which his ds backed up completely! Dh wasn't that impressed! 🤣🤣🤣

Hopefully now I am more prepared, I can also just (internally) roll my eyes and move on!

@WilfredsPies

Get your pig costume on Jen, let’s wrestle!

It's interesting that people who use this idiom never consider that they might be the pig. What do you think that people who read this thread will think about you? You're very patronizing, 'getting quite irritated' and rolling your eyes.

You accuse me of lecturing people. It is very important that people have the facts. When people repeat false statistics then I am going to be pointing that out to them. I know that makes you irritated and want to roll your piggy eyes.

You say you are interested in victims of sexual exploitation, the ones who don't go to 'posh knicker shops' (and you accuse me of being melodramatic!). Let's take, as an example, a Chinese national in Britain selling sex. Is she being exploited?

She has been working in a garment factory in China. She knows that if she had a few thousand pounds in the bank she could leave the factory and start her own business. She has a friend who has done this. She knows another woman who bought a car. They have no regrets.

Why am I bothering to tell you this? You've already told me that you don't want to know. You're not interested. I could tell you about the research by Ko-lin Chin or Elizabeth Pisani into Chinese sex workers working abroad. You would accuse me of just reading a couple of books.

No one could accuse you of having done that. I have read many books about the various forms of prostitution in different parts of the world and I have other knowledge of prostitution in one part of the world, Soho.